When I was in 4th grade, a girl pulled down my halter top in front of a group of kids, who all reacted loudly. When I told the teacher, she said, “Well you shouldn’t wear tops like that to school.”
In 7th grade, when boys regularly pinched girls’ butts in the crowded halls, we were told by teachers, “Boys are just like that.”
When they yelled gross things about body parts at me and others across the gym, we were told “just ignore it.”
I was raised in a culture that teaches women to expect to be abused, and to get used to putting up with it. A culture that teaches men that they can be abusive.
But I stand here today to tell you that I don’t put up with it anymore, we should not put up with it, it is never appropriate or even tolerable on any level.
Nowdays in good public schools, if anyone makes any sexual comment or contact they can have sexual harassment charges brought against them. And this does at least occasionally get carried out, although usually only if there are several girls who are victimized in a short time period.
I get the message from reading the Christmas List thread that many people, including the women here, think we should just ignore the sexually abusive comments, gloss over them, tune them out, and continue taking abuse.
I for one reject that idea.
If someone went around your neighborhood cutting open cats and dogs, would we just say, “Ignore it. Gloss over it.” ??
How is this different? If several have admitted that they find this type of running commentary offensive and degrading to women, why is the answer to ignore it?
On Victimization
On Victimization
Don't bury me 'cause I'm not dead yet.
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selfmademug
Lipstick, I don't think most of the people male or female think you or any of us should ignore it. But there is a difference between abuse and what goes on between consenting adults; adult sexual desire knows many forms and if there is no power imbalance (a big if!!) then it's up to the bodies involved to decide what's healthy and fulfilling. Cope's comment about Britney S was not healthy or fulfilling. It was disgusting, because it's unilateral desire to hurt another person who has no involvement in the decision. That has nothing to do with sexuality and if he thinks otherwise he is fooling himself. However, I'm not offended by him saying he 'wants some' for Christmas. Frankly, so do I, (though not from him, thank you very much) and there are times I might put it in language just as crude as he does. Whether or not that is respectful fodder for this board is another matter; suffice it to say I've had problems with lots he's written from day one and have been very vocal about it.
Dunno if that make sense to you. I repsect what you've said there and elsewhere but I've become very careful not to characterize male expressions of unfocussed sexual want as unhealthy or abusive, cause I don't want anyone turning around and telling me mine are.
Don't want to get mired in this cause I've got enough forums for pain anger and politics in my life already, but I don't want you to think you're in the minority; I don't think you are.
Dunno if that make sense to you. I repsect what you've said there and elsewhere but I've become very careful not to characterize male expressions of unfocussed sexual want as unhealthy or abusive, cause I don't want anyone turning around and telling me mine are.
Don't want to get mired in this cause I've got enough forums for pain anger and politics in my life already, but I don't want you to think you're in the minority; I don't think you are.
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SoLikeCandy
- Posts: 499
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- Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Lipstick--the vast majority of people on this board chat about important, strange, funny and scary things. Very few of those conversations involve tube steaks or making pop divas cry.
As a woman, I am well aware of the entitlement some men feel, and the capacity to be cruel. Also, as I woman, I refuse to be a victim.
There is a difference between being offended and being annoyed. Cope didn't pull anyone's pants down (although I'd betcha a dollar to a donut he's thought about it)--he just has a nasty, sometimes repulsive mouth. That doesn't make me want to shrink away--it pisses me off.
This is not a matter of Cope making us his victims. This is a matter of a guy who doesn't know when to act like an adult. And, like with any hyperactive, sugar-rushed child, sometimes the best thing to do is just ignore him for a while. Scolding sometimes just makes the situation worse.
Cope is hardly the Big Bad Wolf. He's a little boy who wants to peek up girls' dresses. Pat him on the head and ignore him.
As a woman, I am well aware of the entitlement some men feel, and the capacity to be cruel. Also, as I woman, I refuse to be a victim.
There is a difference between being offended and being annoyed. Cope didn't pull anyone's pants down (although I'd betcha a dollar to a donut he's thought about it)--he just has a nasty, sometimes repulsive mouth. That doesn't make me want to shrink away--it pisses me off.
This is not a matter of Cope making us his victims. This is a matter of a guy who doesn't know when to act like an adult. And, like with any hyperactive, sugar-rushed child, sometimes the best thing to do is just ignore him for a while. Scolding sometimes just makes the situation worse.
Cope is hardly the Big Bad Wolf. He's a little boy who wants to peek up girls' dresses. Pat him on the head and ignore him.
If there's one thing you can say about mankind--there's nothing kind about man
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A rope leash
- Posts: 1835
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:47 pm
- Location: southern misery, USA
Costello High
Some people are offended by Cope's lifestyle, but, as it has been noted here several times, as long as it's consensual, then no one is a "victim". I can recall Cope telling a story about how he fought off some rapists who were after his girlfriend one night. If he is an evil victimizer, then why would he defend her?
Sure, he's offensive and obsessed. But, he seems knowledgable enough when it comes to talking about Elvis. To me, he often makes a fool of himself when he's trying to be coy or funny. It goes with the territory. In some people's view, he should shut up. In other's view, someone should shut him up. But this board has allowed a lot of free speech, and should continue to do so. Cope has his fans here, mostly because he breaks up the boredom.
That being said, this isn't High School. If your so offended by Cope's remarks, then why don't you tell him to just shut the fuck up, instead of trying to make him seem like some sort of criminal. He's not your cup of tea, then spit him out, don't lobby behind the scenes to have him censored.
If you think his lifestyle is abhorrent, then you would have thought my brother's was ghastly. You probably think my history with women means that I am morally corrupt. Certainly some of you think I'm a bigot for despising Christians, and I am, but there are no arguements in favor of Christianity, only cries of "Ow!" from Christians who feel their religion is sacred and not subject to critcism or scrutiny. In fact, there wasn't much crying about my brutal rants until a certian someone in Noise's company began posting. Personally, I'd like to see Lipstick talk more about Elvis, and less about herself and what she thinks. But, she is free to say what she pleases. She said Cope's comments were like cutting up cats and dogs. Anybody wannaswallow that?
Don't like my posts? Then get bent! I'm here until the Great and Powerful Taz says I'm out.
This is a little bit like CNN or Fox News. Let's talk about some anonymous poster's sexual braggadocio while letting the more difficult post from a rope leash (about how the USA is headed down the road of world domination) go by the wayside. It's typical, and it's kind of boring, at least for me.
We are all Elvis fans, so we must tolerate other Elvis fans, and I think that's the way Elvis would want it. If you want to argue with me, you know I'm ready. If you want to censor Cope, well, I suppose in High School, (where many of the posters here still reside mentally), Cope would be sent to the Office. But this isn't High School, this is grown-up land, where people might disagree, or even offend. That's free speech, so get used to it.
I think Cope knows where the line is. We're all lucky he hasn't figured out how to post photos. All he said in the Christmas List post was that he would like some "poon-tang" for Christ's birthday. Where's the outrage at BWAP's spiel about the word? Was the "poon-tang" reference some kind of "last straw"? I think it might be just that Texans are thinned-skinned, and I say that because I know Texans.
Yes, give beer and wine to the poorman, so that in his drunkeness he will stay poor, and not see how it is done to him...
Hey, Bamboo, how's it hangin', man?
How's what hangin'?
Your ball-sack, man!
O! It's hangin' fine, bro'!
Sure, he's offensive and obsessed. But, he seems knowledgable enough when it comes to talking about Elvis. To me, he often makes a fool of himself when he's trying to be coy or funny. It goes with the territory. In some people's view, he should shut up. In other's view, someone should shut him up. But this board has allowed a lot of free speech, and should continue to do so. Cope has his fans here, mostly because he breaks up the boredom.
That being said, this isn't High School. If your so offended by Cope's remarks, then why don't you tell him to just shut the fuck up, instead of trying to make him seem like some sort of criminal. He's not your cup of tea, then spit him out, don't lobby behind the scenes to have him censored.
If you think his lifestyle is abhorrent, then you would have thought my brother's was ghastly. You probably think my history with women means that I am morally corrupt. Certainly some of you think I'm a bigot for despising Christians, and I am, but there are no arguements in favor of Christianity, only cries of "Ow!" from Christians who feel their religion is sacred and not subject to critcism or scrutiny. In fact, there wasn't much crying about my brutal rants until a certian someone in Noise's company began posting. Personally, I'd like to see Lipstick talk more about Elvis, and less about herself and what she thinks. But, she is free to say what she pleases. She said Cope's comments were like cutting up cats and dogs. Anybody wannaswallow that?
Don't like my posts? Then get bent! I'm here until the Great and Powerful Taz says I'm out.
This is a little bit like CNN or Fox News. Let's talk about some anonymous poster's sexual braggadocio while letting the more difficult post from a rope leash (about how the USA is headed down the road of world domination) go by the wayside. It's typical, and it's kind of boring, at least for me.
We are all Elvis fans, so we must tolerate other Elvis fans, and I think that's the way Elvis would want it. If you want to argue with me, you know I'm ready. If you want to censor Cope, well, I suppose in High School, (where many of the posters here still reside mentally), Cope would be sent to the Office. But this isn't High School, this is grown-up land, where people might disagree, or even offend. That's free speech, so get used to it.
I think Cope knows where the line is. We're all lucky he hasn't figured out how to post photos. All he said in the Christmas List post was that he would like some "poon-tang" for Christ's birthday. Where's the outrage at BWAP's spiel about the word? Was the "poon-tang" reference some kind of "last straw"? I think it might be just that Texans are thinned-skinned, and I say that because I know Texans.
Yes, give beer and wine to the poorman, so that in his drunkeness he will stay poor, and not see how it is done to him...
Hey, Bamboo, how's it hangin', man?
How's what hangin'?
Your ball-sack, man!
O! It's hangin' fine, bro'!
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laughingcrow
- Posts: 2476
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:35 am
Cope is over-sexed and he makes very near the knuckle comments... I can see how he might be construed as viewing women merely as sex-objects simply because he has to bang in a comment nearly everytime he posts...but he's probably a thoroughly nice bloke, who is mostly trying to be funny (and sometimes he is funny and yes, sometimes quite crude). I honestly don't think he was trying to offend anyone, maybe he was, and if so more fool me.
I personally would never use that kind of language or that sunject matter in the presence of a lady, unless she new me very very well (and even then I'd tread carefully)...but then again I'm a 'stuffed up Brit'.
I personally would never use that kind of language or that sunject matter in the presence of a lady, unless she new me very very well (and even then I'd tread carefully)...but then again I'm a 'stuffed up Brit'.
I'm glad to see someone brought this up, if for no other reason than that it has people thinking about it. I think it's easy for people to say "just ignore it" or "pat him on the head and ignore him" when referring to Cope's comments. However, I think this ignores a big part of the problem. Yes, he has the right to what he wants to say – all of us do – but I think the problem lies more in where is ideas are perpetuated from and how accepted they are by society. It’s not him I’m afraid of – it’s that he’s not alone - a rather large portion of society accepts his ideas. Most men claim they respect women - but saying it isn’t enough – you have to show it through actions and words.
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A rope leash
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- Location: southern misery, USA
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noiseradio
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LessThanZero
- Posts: 1119
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Follow the trail!
What a great sentence!!!!!! SLC you're brilliant!!SoLikeCandy wrote:Very few of those conversations involve tube steaks or making pop divas cry.
I haven't been sexually harassed in probably 3 years...
Maybe little things here and there, but no really good ones. Personally, I always liked it, but as sulky would agree "it's different for girls."
I'm having REAL sex on May 15. Let's all be sexually civil and follow that "middle road" to peace, consensual adult love and understanding.
Loving this board since before When I Was Cruel.
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LessThanZero
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oh yeah
I was victimized last week. a stranger stepped out into the road holding an empty gas can. so i stop the car and open the passenger door. he told me he needed MONEY, not gas, to get to Grand Rapids. I gave him my last 7 bucks, and he got aggressive. "THAT'S IT??? Well go down there, there's an ATM machine."
I had to lie and say I didn't have those capabilities. He finally got out of my car.
Did the good Samaritan get pan-handled? They should've put that in, cuz if he did, I probably wouldn't naively let a stranger into my car.
doh!
I had to lie and say I didn't have those capabilities. He finally got out of my car.
Did the good Samaritan get pan-handled? They should've put that in, cuz if he did, I probably wouldn't naively let a stranger into my car.
doh!
Loving this board since before When I Was Cruel.
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Gillibeanz
- Posts: 1697
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:28 pm
- Location: England
I guess women are more likely to be sexually harrassed than men, and I have experienced it a few times - one time in particular where I was lucky not to have been raped. Fortunately I had the presence of mind to fight back and yell at the top of my lungs and he got scared and ran off. Everyone is a victim one way or another throughout their lives, either by being victimized by people or circumstances.
I know its a serious subject folks but sometimes there is a funny side to things. When my partner was a hard up student he was out with a mate on their way to a pub on a freezing cold day, and they saw a tramp sitting by the roadside begging for money. He asked my partner for money for a sandwich, and my partner realising he would probably spend it on drink very kindly popped into a nearby fish and chip shop and spent his last £5 on a meal for him, for which he had to queue for for a good 10 minutes.
While he was waiting in the queue the tramp was outside chatting to his friend. After a long wait my partner came out with the meal only to find the tramp gone. "Where is he?" he asked.
"Oh he left you a message" said his friend - "he said you can stick your fish and chips up your arse!!!" The worst thing about it was that both of them had already eaten so they had to throw the meal away, and then had to go home as my partner had spent his last penny!
Which just goes to prove - some victims cant be helped!!
I know its a serious subject folks but sometimes there is a funny side to things. When my partner was a hard up student he was out with a mate on their way to a pub on a freezing cold day, and they saw a tramp sitting by the roadside begging for money. He asked my partner for money for a sandwich, and my partner realising he would probably spend it on drink very kindly popped into a nearby fish and chip shop and spent his last £5 on a meal for him, for which he had to queue for for a good 10 minutes.
While he was waiting in the queue the tramp was outside chatting to his friend. After a long wait my partner came out with the meal only to find the tramp gone. "Where is he?" he asked.
"Oh he left you a message" said his friend - "he said you can stick your fish and chips up your arse!!!" The worst thing about it was that both of them had already eaten so they had to throw the meal away, and then had to go home as my partner had spent his last penny!
Which just goes to prove - some victims cant be helped!!
COME ON YOU SPURS!!
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Copenhagen Fan
- Posts: 1192
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- Location: København, DK
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well in my own defense...I don't recall directing any sexual comments directly towards any individual women here....only Ms. Spears, and it's unlikely that my comments reached her and traumatized her. From now on, I will refrain from using the word "poon tang" or any other terms regarding the female body, or depict them in a sexual manner. In addition, I will refrain from making self effacing or tongue in cheek jokes about my own horniness or sexual obsessions. I'm once again sorry if my comments regarding my own sexuality and sexual desires have freightened or victimized any women here. If I did victimize any of the women here directly, I would very much appriciate if you could tell me exactly what I said that was offensive to you and how it made you feel. It would be nice to receive these complaints via PM. I am serious about this.....I would like to hear how my behavior effected you, if any directly. Then I will be able to take responsibility for my actions and reflect over the consequenses of my comments, jokes or not. That's the best I can do at this point. Take care ......
I'd never leave the house if I had a Gimp
Of course, people could simply ignore his posts. I've got nothing against Cope, but when I delve into one of his posts, I kinda know that it could get, shall we say, spicy. And some days, when I'm not in the mood to go there, I just skip his posts altogether.
It's a touchy subject, because it is a privately-run website. And the moderators are the ones who set the boundaries. It's really up to them as to where those boundaries should be set.
It's a touchy subject, because it is a privately-run website. And the moderators are the ones who set the boundaries. It's really up to them as to where those boundaries should be set.
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A rope leash
- Posts: 1835
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:47 pm
- Location: southern misery, USA
Hints from Taz
The boundary is shortly before the cowboy decides that the ewes are irresistible.
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oily slick
- Posts: 1864
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SoLikeCandy
- Posts: 499
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Interesting. I seem to be getting more of the same message: to ignore comments that are abusive, even while people very supportively agree that the comments are offensive.
This is a realm of words. The fact that there is a face, person, personality on the other end of each of these character names is easy to forget. An internet community is a surreal place.
But since words are all we have, they become even more powerful.
Isn’t that why you all come back here day after day?
This is a realm of words. The fact that there is a face, person, personality on the other end of each of these character names is easy to forget. An internet community is a surreal place.
But since words are all we have, they become even more powerful.
Isn’t that why you all come back here day after day?
Don't bury me 'cause I'm not dead yet.
Cope: I have no interest in engaging in private message conversations with you. Your comments are public, and so shall mine be.
But since you claim a naïve confusion at the suggestion that your words are offensive, I will explain one recent example.
On a Christmas List thread you wrote that you wanted a "Mexican whore that can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch."
First, the reference to a sex act in which you are the star receiver. These jokes are so tired and get ignored by self respecting women all the time. Still, I will have a better morning if I don’t hear one.
But more offensive than that is the “Mexican whore” bit. It’s an old joke among rednecks. Prostitution is inherently exploitive. But the real point of this joke is that because she is poor and desperate, she is even less of a person, she will perform even more services for her customer’s gratification and for less money, she is even less valuable and less human.
I find that whole train of thought offensive as a human being.
I don’t believe that you are naïve enough that you cannot imagine this for yourself. I do not believe that you don’t understand what’s so offensive to most of your associates here. I think you just want to keep talking about it, and keep talking about it, and keep….
But since you claim a naïve confusion at the suggestion that your words are offensive, I will explain one recent example.
On a Christmas List thread you wrote that you wanted a "Mexican whore that can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch."
First, the reference to a sex act in which you are the star receiver. These jokes are so tired and get ignored by self respecting women all the time. Still, I will have a better morning if I don’t hear one.
But more offensive than that is the “Mexican whore” bit. It’s an old joke among rednecks. Prostitution is inherently exploitive. But the real point of this joke is that because she is poor and desperate, she is even less of a person, she will perform even more services for her customer’s gratification and for less money, she is even less valuable and less human.
I find that whole train of thought offensive as a human being.
I don’t believe that you are naïve enough that you cannot imagine this for yourself. I do not believe that you don’t understand what’s so offensive to most of your associates here. I think you just want to keep talking about it, and keep talking about it, and keep….
Don't bury me 'cause I'm not dead yet.
Lipstick/Everyone,
I really didn't want to get involved in any of this as personally I have never found anything offensive about anybody's comments on this board...not that I can't feel empathy regarding others personal levels of being hurt/intimidated/insulted.
While I understand and agree regarding exploitative and offensive comments regarding women, their gentialia and their respective sexual 'uses', I'm not sure that it isn't being blown a bit out of proportion.
This is a message forum and probably shouldn't be able to affect how anybody feels about themselves in a real world situation.
No personal attacks will be tolerated on this board, if Cope had said that he wished you (or Spooky or myself or whomever) to come visit if he/she had the chrome-sucking ability then his IP would be banned, that's not what happened.
Now one solution that I see as a possibility is that we can setup an 'Ignore' list, where you can put Cope on it and you won't see any of his posts at all.
I don't have an answer, I'm not going to ban Cope (or Rope for that matter) at this time. You don't have to ignore what he says (though I guess the ignore list would do that), if it's words that are offending you can fight back with words of your own since that's the only medium available to us here. You're doing that and have made your point clear, I also believe Cope is aware of the situation and will hopefully try and curb any language that might be deemed offensive.
I'm probably not expressing myself very clearly or well, so please let me know if there's anything I can do that will make the board more enjoyable for everybody.
Thanks,
taz
I really didn't want to get involved in any of this as personally I have never found anything offensive about anybody's comments on this board...not that I can't feel empathy regarding others personal levels of being hurt/intimidated/insulted.
While I understand and agree regarding exploitative and offensive comments regarding women, their gentialia and their respective sexual 'uses', I'm not sure that it isn't being blown a bit out of proportion.
This is a message forum and probably shouldn't be able to affect how anybody feels about themselves in a real world situation.
No personal attacks will be tolerated on this board, if Cope had said that he wished you (or Spooky or myself or whomever) to come visit if he/she had the chrome-sucking ability then his IP would be banned, that's not what happened.
Now one solution that I see as a possibility is that we can setup an 'Ignore' list, where you can put Cope on it and you won't see any of his posts at all.
I don't have an answer, I'm not going to ban Cope (or Rope for that matter) at this time. You don't have to ignore what he says (though I guess the ignore list would do that), if it's words that are offending you can fight back with words of your own since that's the only medium available to us here. You're doing that and have made your point clear, I also believe Cope is aware of the situation and will hopefully try and curb any language that might be deemed offensive.
I'm probably not expressing myself very clearly or well, so please let me know if there's anything I can do that will make the board more enjoyable for everybody.
Thanks,
taz
A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a fuckin' cross? It's kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on.
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Copenhagen Fan
- Posts: 1192
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: København, DK
- Contact:
Lipstick...ok I'm sorry that the Mexican Whore Sucking The Chrome off A Trailer Hitch joke offended you. I can understand that it offends you because of the act of felatio is offensive to you because it depicts the woman as passive and pleasing the man. And I also understand that you take offense to the mention of prostitution because it is not nice for women. I appologize for bringing these offensive topics up! I have to say that I think there is a cultural gap here. People in Scandinavia are not really offended by prostitution or oral sex! I now realize that I must tone it down to fit in with the overall culture of the Board, where there are people from less moderized and more morally conservative places....I'll think of that next time before I post!
I'd never leave the house if I had a Gimp
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Gillibeanz
- Posts: 1697
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:28 pm
- Location: England
I have been holding back on commenting, but his whole thing is now WAY out of proportion and is very tedious. Cope has been smacked on the wrist and will probably behave - well for a while anyway . I personally don't get upset by his comments, - live and let live and all that jazz as long as its not directed at anyone personally, and if I did I just wouldn't bother to read them.
May I suggest you all give it a rest or dare I say kiss and make up - or would that be me being sexually vulgar???
May I suggest you all give it a rest or dare I say kiss and make up - or would that be me being sexually vulgar???
COME ON YOU SPURS!!
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Copenhagen Fan
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- Contact:
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Copenhagen Fan
- Posts: 1192
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:00 am
- Location: København, DK
- Contact:
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selfmademug
I can't believe I'm delving into this again, but here we go.
1. Taz, on the contrary you're well spoken and thoughtful on this topic. Thank you. This thread is now self-contained and under its proper heading, and no one has to read or respond to it if they don't want to, so I think it is fine.
2. Lipstick: you should stick to your guns and speak your mind as you've been doing. But remember that offensive and abusive are not synonymous.
3: Cope: You fancy yourself an enlightened guy. To me, the inclusion of 'Mexican' was denegrating and racist. If you're such a hoity-toity john and want a highly skilled whore, stick to your enlightened, well-paid, health-insured Danish ones. Otherwise part of the turn-on is degrading an unprivileged person, and in that sense Lipstick has you pegged, in my opinion.
Ahh, the holiday spirit...
1. Taz, on the contrary you're well spoken and thoughtful on this topic. Thank you. This thread is now self-contained and under its proper heading, and no one has to read or respond to it if they don't want to, so I think it is fine.
2. Lipstick: you should stick to your guns and speak your mind as you've been doing. But remember that offensive and abusive are not synonymous.
3: Cope: You fancy yourself an enlightened guy. To me, the inclusion of 'Mexican' was denegrating and racist. If you're such a hoity-toity john and want a highly skilled whore, stick to your enlightened, well-paid, health-insured Danish ones. Otherwise part of the turn-on is degrading an unprivileged person, and in that sense Lipstick has you pegged, in my opinion.
Ahh, the holiday spirit...