You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the USA?

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alexv
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You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the USA?

Postby alexv » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:45 pm

Well, not for all just now, but soon or else. Interesting times. For some reason, and the bills are obviously not related, I keep thinking about the uproar when Clinton signed the Welfare bill. At the time, liberals throughout the land railed at Clinton's compromise legislation, predicting mass numbers of homeless kids, among other things. None of it came to pass, and the welfare mess was pretty much solved. Now, conservatives are making similar "end of the world" cries, and I suspect that in the end this bill, also a compromise effort, will be a success, not perfect, but a success given how, like the welfare bill, it goes against entrenched notions.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/healt ... th.html?hp

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Who Shot Sam?
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Who Shot Sam? » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:54 pm

Mr. Average would respond, but he has moved to Costa Rica with Rush Limbaugh. :D
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pophead2k
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby pophead2k » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:18 pm

Agree Alex. Surprised at the amount of fear being spread and raised. Since when was fear an American attribute?

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Jack of All Parades
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Jack of All Parades » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:34 pm

Fear has always been used as a tactic-ever since it was seen how easily the masses can be cowed. I am so happy today that this was done. Not the 'perfect' solution but many steps ahead of where we were before yesterday. And look the sky has not fallen down nor do we live in a socialist state, just one where we are now taking steps to make sure that our ciitizens have access to reasonably affordable health care. Give it a few years, the same people that were decrying this legislation will view it as the same type of entitlement that Social Security and Medicaid are now viewed.

The sheer amount of misinformation that has been spread into the discourse by the Republicans is frustrating. The fact that average people fail to make an effort to even understand the discourse and the need for this legislation is even more frustrating. I am grateful that we are now at least taking the initial steps that will bring this country into line with civilized nations around the globe- that is reasonable, affordable health care for its populace. It is a good day!
"....there's a merry song that starts in 'I' and ends in 'You', as many famous pop songs do....'

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A rope leash
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In lieu of Mr. Average

Postby A rope leash » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:26 pm

O yeah, this is "great".

The government says you must buy something from a corporation. You pay and the corporation and its shareholders and employees profit. In the case of some of the management and many of the shareholders, the profit will be tremendous. They will get rich.

Money you must pay by law will make certain cretins rich.

The government already steals tons of money in the form of taxes and gives it to various corporations for outrageous defense contracts and other sinkholes. The way this bill is written, we will just give it directly to the corporations.

Neat.

If the insurance and medical industries are profit driven, then why is it the government can't run medicine with tax money and make a profit?

Yeah, I know, the government can't do that because the government can't do anything right. But they are fucking running everything from schools to wars anyway...why do we need these corporations in there to suck even more money up? What happens when the money we pay these corporations isn't enough to keep them in profits? Will they go out of business, or will we bail them out?

The thing is, the government and the corporations are hand-holding sweethearts. They are married. So what's the need for the corporation, when the government could do it alone? The government could do it without the high executive bonuses and shareholder payouts.

How many times can the sheep be shorn?

...and this isn't like car insurance. You don't have to buy car insurance. You can't drive legally without it, but you don't have to buy it. Under this law, if you are alive you must pay the corporation.

Welcome to the nightmare.

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Emotional Toothpaste
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Emotional Toothpaste » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:36 pm

Color me skeptical. As someone who previously could not get health insurance on my own at ANY price because of a pre-existing condition (congenital heart valve defect and subsequent valve replacement surgery) --- I am still not so naive as to believe this bill is going to improve anything. Yeah, insurance companies will now have to cover me -- but at what price? Certainly not at anything I can afford. And so what if I don't get insurance? I pay a penalty of what, $700 PER YEAR I think I read somewhere. Fine, penalize me! Still cheaper than the $1500.00 PER MONTH or more that insurance companies will now want to cover me. I don't think the bill puts limits on what insurance companies can charge, does it? BTW- I do have insurance, but only because I forced my employer to make me a W-2 employee and offer me group health insurance and deduct the FULL premium from my pay (about $450/month and its shitty insurance too). If they didn't, I told them I would have to go work some for somewhere that would. They do not do this for any other salesreps in the company.

Anyway, do you really believe poor people are now going to go out and buy health insurance because they are now required to by law? I don't.

Do you really believe Obamacare is going to reduce the cost of healthcare? I've yet to hear how. Government involvement will only add another layer of bureaucratic waste and cost which we all pay for anyway through taxes and mounting national debt.

I like the sound of "universal" health care, I really, really do, but this ain't it.

I think the only way to bring health care costs down is for everyone to go OFF of insurance. Health insurance should be reserved for catastrophic type of coverage only - to keep you from going bankrupt if you had to have some major surgery or cancer or whatever. Everything else we should just pay for out of pocket. Doctors, procedures, pharamcies/drug companies would then have to COMPETE with each other for our business. And we of course, would want to stay as healthy as possible by assuming some responsibility for our own health. I think this would be a good thing. Government Medicare/Medicaid would have to continue of course, but on the periphery.

alexv
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby alexv » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:42 pm

ET, the plan is complicated, so skepticism is in order. I found the link below to be useful in answering some basic questions. Since the thing seems to still be subject to more political maneuvering, this may not be the final word.

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-Politica ... eform-bill

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Emotional Toothpaste
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Emotional Toothpaste » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:23 pm

Alexv, thanks for the link. I gave it a quick readover and it raises more questions than it answers. Maybe I'm wrong and this will be a huge improvement. The 2% penalty is STILL looking better to me than the almost 7% I'm paying now. How will the government pay for all of us who just OPT OUT?

Undocumented illegals can still get services at any hospital they enter. Nothing has changed there. Not going to comment on the humanity of that issue which I am sure all of us would agree on, but as long as we allow illegals to pour over the border and openly work and carry on with their lives in this country -- it is an enormous burden on regular taxpayers. Neither party will touch it with a 10 foot pole because corporate america OWNS both sides of the aisle on this issue.

The rest of the plan just doesn't seem very clear at all. Its like complicating the tax code. Big brother looking over the insurance companies shoulders (?). Weasels will find the loopholes, costs will overrun, and you gotta wonder how quality of healthcare will improve in the midst of all this.

Sorry to be a cynic. I DO admire Obama's tenacity on the issue. Something has to be done and maybe this is a very small first attempt in the right direction. I would like to see a more open and objective discussion of the finer points instead of the bickering that falls along party lines. Got no use for any of that.

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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Mr. Average » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:03 pm

Update:

Seniors are screwed and they are finding out just now. Andy Griffith commissioned to do a series of Old - Folks ads on Old Folks stations like the Weather Channel to try to talk it up.

Emergency rooms collapsing under the weight of the system and it has not even kicked in yet. USA Today, that bastian of conservative opinion, published article last Wednesday on the dismal impact that Obama care has is will have on the ability to get emergency care. Mommy has chest pains? It will be like the DMV, pick a number and wait.

1/3 of anesthesiologists expected to leave positions. Primary care docs rationing number of patients that are covered by Medicare/Medicaid plans. Primary care physician shortage at 160,000 by 2020.

Excise tax on Medical Device and Pharmaceutical manufacturers already resulting in layoffs in this industry.

It never was about helathcare. It was about politcal power and dependency of a large voting block on government.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

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Mr. Average
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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Mr. Average » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:10 pm

No WSS, I'm still here, and not a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Still in the wonderful state of California, collapsing due to liberal politics, entitlements, and illegal immigration.

Just chose a different venue to discuss the future of the United States of America, as oppossed to this forum where it became 'chic' to derogate independent and free thinking unless it was liberal. To castigate all non-liberal thinkers as racist, wealthy, and mean-spirited. Too bad that to be considered 'cool' on this forum it was important to adopt the polital mindset of Elvis.

My Hero's haven't changed : Pope John Paul II, Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush, and Miles Davis.

Miles was often labeled racist - He responded (and his actions proved it) : "I am racist - against uncool people, not against white of black"

Miles was a smart guy. Do yourself a favor and read his autobiography.

Maybe name calling and taking the easy targets won't come so easy.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

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Re: You Cannot be Serious: Health Insurance for All in the U

Postby Jack of All Parades » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:25 am

Having experienced American medicine now first hand while recovering from a significant pulmonary embolism while on vacation on the Cape, I am so grateful I continue to have health insurance and would not like to contemplate where I would be right now had I not the coverage. To think that so many of my countrymen are without is saddening. We need universal care and we need it now. Anything less is a sham and a damning of our common humanity and one would hope concern and care for one another.
"....there's a merry song that starts in 'I' and ends in 'You', as many famous pop songs do....'


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