The Politics of Politics: The Ride of a Lifetime

[Mr. Average]

This political season in the US is shaping up to be the best ever, with a virtual rollercoaster ride of a campaign trail. Just as the College football season this year was filled with twists and turns, so will the campaign for the President of the United States.

While many have bought into the rhetoric of the SCHIP program ("it's healthcare for the children", better hold onto your wallets because you are gonna be paying what you pay for your kids and for a zillion other kids...and now (see below) mom's, dad's etc.

Tax and Spend. Tax and Spend. The Liberal Way! Sadly, it fails every time, but once again, another Tax and Spend initiative.

Stance by Democrats may imperil Senate SCHIP compromise
Eight Democratic senators have sent a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., saying they cannot support any compromise in the State Children's Health Insurance Program that would limit their states' capacity to provide coverage for parents. Meanwhile, Pelosi and Hoyer reiterated their commitment to the inclusion of 10 million children in the program.

[Who Shot Sam?]

'Cause the Republican way is working so well? Mired in two conflicts in the Middle East, weak dollar, faltering economy, massive deficits (again), crumbling infrastructure, health insurance costs skyrocketing, loss of international credibility. Yeah, we need more of that.

[pophead2k]

I guess I understand tax and spend criticisms. But its better than the Republican answer the past 8 years: Don't tax, but still spend. And spend. And spend. Whatever happened to fiscal responsibility as a hallmark of classic Republicanism? Its one of the many reasons the majority of my family (long-time Republicans all) have disavowed the party. As my fiscally conservative step-dad puts it, "Spending us into a hole and kissing the ass of the religious right is NOT my definition of being a Republican."

Unfortunately for Republican apologists, you can't blame the 'liberal tax and spend Congress' anymore! Although the Dems took over again last year, it had been a Republican congress since 1994. I just don't get it. The 'real' Republicans these days? Libertarians.

[Mike Boom]

'Cause the Republican way is working so well? Mired in two conflicts in the Middle East, weak dollar, faltering economy, massive deficits (again), crumbling infrastructure, health insurance costs skyrocketing, loss of international credibility. Yeah, we need more of that.

Not to mention their biggest crime - deliberately trying to mislead the American public on global warming. Pretending it was just something dreamed up by those wacky scientists and tree huggers, and actively trying to spin it in the press while the polar ice cap melts. This government has been nothing short of a total and absolute, unmitigated disaster for not just America but for the whole world.

[Mr. Average]

'Cause the Republican way is working so well? Mired in two conflicts in the Middle East, weak dollar, faltering economy, massive deficits (again), crumbling infrastructure, health insurance costs skyrocketing, loss of international credibility. Yeah, we need more of that.

Not to mention their biggest crime - deliberately trying to mislead the American public on global warming. Pretending it was just something dreamed up by those wacky scientists and tree huggers, and actively trying to spin it in the press while the polar ice cap melts. This government has been nothing short of a total and absolute, unmitigated disaster for not just America but for the whole world.

So the conflicts in the Middle East are "the Republican Way". HAve you forgotten the bombings ordered by Bill Clinton in the Middle East. Of course, in spite of the rousing bipartisan support for the war, the revisionist who will try to rewrite history cannot because their vote is forever a matter of public record. And another easy out for the anti repubs is that those poor Dem's that voted for the war were duped, or worse, voted without checking the actual record. If the later, they are proven idiots. If the former, then the consoiracy to fool all of Washington outdoes the notion that OJ did not Kill Ron and his wife...it was a perfect conspiracy that everyone was perfectly supportive of. Give me a freakin' break! If the data upon which the war vote was fabricated then any number of individuals would stand to be billionaires by outting the evidence. But no a soul has come forward, because the evidence was accurate. Recall, please with some semblence of actual reflection and rational thought, that the time between the presentation of the data and the actual first incursion was over 9 months. Now I "axe" you, could it have happened in 3/4 years time that the weapons were mobilized to a more neutral soil? Maybe? Or have you all figured out that this just didn't happen because it does not 'fit' conveniently into the chant "Bush Lied, People Died". The 60's are over folks. Look at real facts, not slogans and face the music here.

Dem talking points. The dollar is not weak and the economy is strong Every objective indicator proves it. Jobless indicators are down. The only real measure of trouble inthe economy is in housing, and teh Dem's want to tax the holy shit out of every American to bail out those who actually agreed, by contract, to buy a house on an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, only to later learn that they failed to read the details and can't afford the house. So we pay their way out of it. This is not an naive, indigent population..these are workers who were able to purchase but did nto curtail their spending in other areas. So again, hold on to your wallets because if and when the Dem's take office you will see the biggest taxation load ever imposed on this country. Then smile, say that Happy Days are Here Again, and pay up or go to jail.

Again, the 'massive deficit" is a ruse. If you beleive that Clinton resolved the deficit and Bush was responsible for creating it again you are simply ignoring history, public record, and the facts. Clinton ("Clintons Folly") balanced the budget articifially and economist around the world know it was largely a ruse for political gain. So when the repubs came back into power, they had no choice but to build it back to where we could operate as a soveriegn nation. Am I sleeping, or were we in fact attacked on 9/11? What should he have done? Maintain the faux balance in the budget or prepare to defend ourselves. Clinton so weakened our national defense there was little infratsructure remaining when he left office.

On global warming, what are the implications 100 years from now? 500 years from now? The thing that amazes me is that large urban cities like LA and others, in the 70's, were so mired in pollution that they barely created a skyline. The situation, through legislation largely passed by Republican administrations, has become much improved by all measures. So in my lifetime Ihave seen a huge decrease in the amount of junk dumped into the air and affecting our thermal future. What happened in the 60's and 70's was real and was not part of this administration. But damage was done. I am proud of the repair that has been done and the fact that the tipping point on global warming was not only avoided, we will likely never see it.

It makes for a great Democratic talking point though, doesn't it?

[Mr. Average]

No one speaks to the commentary of the Democrats. Simply slam the republicans hard enough and we might win office. Well, it worked! Congress is heavily biased by Democrats. WOW! Look at all the changes! They promised to get us out of Iraq. I think we might still be there. They promised the world would turn on their securing the Senate and the House. They got them both! Whappen? Nothing

I suppose it would be refreshing, just once, for someone to actually speak to what the Democrats have failed to do and live up to instead of always diverting back to the same old talking points.

THINK, and then decide if you are pleased with what the alternatives are in the Democratic party. If Hillary is the best they have, after a total record of legislative failure and legal problems, then good for you. You have all solved the problem. Hire her. With your vote.

And kiss the future of your children off forever. I hope you can look them in the eye when they grow up and realize your ideology strapped them with so much debt that they cannot even afford a pot to piss in. please think about what YOU will do to the Children if you don't really look closely at what the Dem's are posing for the future. The damage it will do to the next generation is unfathomable.

Alarmist? I really don't think so, and I really think if you look at just Hillary's commitments if elected she has already broken the bank. Her programs that she has committed to cannot be funded even with the huge tax increases. And on meet the Press, Tim got Baraq to admit that his tax increases were 'open to everyone' but he would do what he could to limit it to the rich. Right. Good for him.

Hold on to your wallets. Hold on to your kids.

[Who Shot Sam?]

Cuckooland. I don't take "talking points" from anyone, but I know that in your world anyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or brainwashed.

So, just about every bad thing that's ever happened can be pinned on people who haven't been in office or effective control of Congress for years. That's mighty convenient.

Sorry, but despite the Democrats' best efforts I think your boys are probably going to take a Louisville Slugger to the nuts in 2008. And not a moment too soon.

[Mike Boom]

What happened in the 60's and 70's was real and was not part of this administration. But damage was done. I am proud of the repair that has been done and the fact that the tipping point on global warming was not only avoided, we will likely never see it.

You have to be joking!
Exactly the kind of head in the sand approach that will ensure the planet burns. Read some articles man, its happening right NOW !

And kiss the future of your children off forever. I hope you can look them in the eye when they grow up and realize your ideology strapped them with so much debt that they cannot even afford a pot to piss in. please think about what YOU will do to the Children if you don't really look closely at what the Dem's are posing for the future. The damage it will do to the next generation is unfathomable.

It amazes me that you seem so worried about the future of the children. Where exactly do you think these children will live when the planet dies?

For example, the largest single block of ice in the Arctic, the Ward Hunt Ice Shelf, had been around for 3,000 years before it started cracking in 2000. Within two years it had split all the way through and is now breaking into pieces.

In 2002 the Larsen B ice shelf, the size of Rhode Island, stable since the last ice age disentigrated. Howerer, what however took glaciologists by surprise was the rapidness of the breakup - a mere three days.

But hey, don't worry, when the arctic ice melts it may make it easier to drill for oil right?

[BlueChair]

Forgive my international perspective (as usual), but didn't GWB put the U.S. in a huge amount of debt? Isn't the economy in shambles right now? I'm reading articles about people being unable to afford Christmas presents this year. I wouldn't blame that on the Democrats so much as the people running the country over the past 7 years.

And the debate is over re: global warming. Even the scientists that were paid to put out bogus reports are admitting their mistakes and pursuading people to wake up and face reality.

[pophead2k]

When Ronald Reagan came into office, dems everywhere said the world would end in Nuclear holocaust. They were wrong. When Clinton was elected, Republicans predicted out of control spending on par with the FDR administration and economic catastrophe. They were wrong. When Bush was elected, no one knew what to think, except that the guy seemed like an idiot. 9/11 came along and offered up some ripe opportunities for the folks he'd surrounded himself with and Bush screwed the pooch and put the conservatives in an untenable position. So now the Dems have the opportunity to run the show again and folks like Mr. A will "kiss away our children's future" with alarmist overreaction again.

Mr. A, its hard for me to imagine Hillary Clinton or anyone else doing a worse job of leading the country than what we've had the past eight years. That's not bashing conservatives, its bashing Bush. The American people love to fuck things up, and then overcorrect. Its been going on for pretty much all of the 20th and 21st century and I'm sure it'll go on until we're all speaking Mandarin. Calm thyself, my friend. It can't be good for your health or your spleen to get so worked up. If this American thing is supposed to work, it will, and it will do so because of and in spite of the dunderheads we put into office at every level of government under every type of political label. The point is, no one knows what the future holds. Because of that fact, we are more likely to vote against someone or something that we perceive as unfavorable than to vote for something we hope or wish would be successful.

[so lacklustre]

...but everything is fine in Orange County, ca.

[Emotional Toothpaste]

This political season in the US is shaping up to be the best ever

Are you serious??

This is the worst lot of candidates, on both sides, that this country has ever seen. And at a time when we really needs leadership. I'm afraid I've lost my stomach to even pretend to be interested. The Ron Paul guy would get my vote if I didn't feel it would be wasted. And even he is a bit of a quack. But in the end, our mainstream political process has truly become a wasteland of uselessness. Its all packaged and marketed to us and we should sue for false advertising with all their hollow promises. What candidates look good to you? I don't see any. The political season? hahahaha, its a SHAM!!

On the issue of global warming - it is real, no doubt about it. But show me the scientific evidence that points directly to it being manmade? And suppose every vehicle and factory in America were to stop running today what kind've measurable difference it would have in global climate change, short and long term? People have reached hysteria on this issue and we can thank the hypocrite, nobel-prize winning Al Gore. I consider myself a tree-hugger, a lover of nature, against drilling in ANWR or anywhere environmentally sensitive. I drive a fuel efficient low-emissions vehicle, I recycle everything, and even buy the $5 energy efficient light bulbs, but I still think there is a lot of alarmist crap going around on this global warming thing. I truly wish the money we had spent on Iraq had been invested in researching alternative energy sources, but that is a pipe dream. No electable politician is willing to do that.

[Mike Boom]

But show me the scientific evidence that points directly to it being manmade?

Hmmm ... lets see.

Humans pump massive amounts of carbon diooxide and methane into the atmosphere from burning fossil fuels and simultaneously cut down the rain forests which absorb carbon dioxide and turn it into clean air. I think its crazy to think that wouldn't have an effect!

I truly wish the money we had spent on Iraq had been invested in researching alternative energy sources, but that is a pipe dream. No electable politician is willing to do that.

Totally agree. I also think its very very sad when the only prudent and sane course of action and what is after all, only common sense, is seen to be somehow outlandish and merely a pipe dream. One day maybe people will wake up and start putting more value on the planet that gives them life than they do on the almighty dollar . I just hope its not too late.

[alexv]

pophead, nice points. Agree with you totally on the need for perspective and an understanding of long-term trends in American history. The American system of government, coupled with its economic system, and its natural resources is a guarantee against catastrophes of the kind dreamed up by extreme righties and lefties when their folks aren't in power.

Blue, your question about GWB and US debt is an example of the need for long-term thinking. The only time in the last 40 years when the US debt went away, so to speak, was during the Clinton years. Not everyone thinks that having no debt by the way is a good thing, and folks disagree about how much credit BC should get for lowering the debt (those were the years of the computer revolution and many attribute the boom in the american economy to that event). On that score, this neo-conservative credits the greatest Treasury Secretary of the 20th century, Mr. Rubin, as the main man (I wold demand tenure at Goldman Sachs as a prerequisite for any future Treasury chief). Anyway, there was massive debt before GWB and there will be after. Not the end of the world in any case.

Which gets me to your second point. No, Blue, despite what you might hear up North the American economy is not in shambles. Far from it. I wouldn't put too much stock in articles about people not affording Christmas presents. I live in the Northeast, and spend most of my days in NYC in and amongst people of different economic levels and have never met anyone who can't afford Christmas presents. I'm sure people like that exist in the US, and probably in Canada too, and in England etc. The fact that they exist doesn't mean an economy is in shambles. Check out the unemployment rate in this country when you can. We are and have been for a number of years at essentially full employment. Christmas presents are not an issue for most Americans.

Now, credit card debt is an issue, fueled by the fact that even the poorest among us feel entitled to have masive tv sets, massive cars and mucho bling. If anything, the American poor are history's most well-off poor, and have more leisure time than any other economic sector in the nation (which probably explains the acquisitive habits).

I don't blame the Republicans over the last 7 years for anything on the economic front. The main problem we have on that front, esoteric as it may be, is the sub prime credit crunch (a direct result of the easy availability of credit for folks who should not have been getting it in the first place) started long before GWB, and has nothing to do with politics.

My main problem with GWB is Iraq. I supported it initially, came to the conclusion that it was a mistake (because we underestimated the ability of Iraquis to act rationally), and no matter how it turns out (that is, even if we end up establishing some kind of normalcy there), the cost to us, in money and human lives, has been disproportionate to the gain.

My second problem is that GWB is just too damn stupid and ignorant to be our President. It's between him, Harding and Coolidge, as far as who is the stupidest US president of the 20th, and frankly I think he makes those other two seem like geniuses. The US is too great a nation, too important a power, to be represented (I was going to say "run" but, thankfully, the place runs itself) by a moron.

As I've said before, a Democrat is guaranteed to win. I think it will be Hillary. I like the idea of Bubba back near the center of power. And it's the Dem's turn. I might not like some of their social policy stuff, but the world will not come to an end.

Which leads me to global warming.Clearly GWB is not to blame. I guess we are, as a species. And that's what makes me refrain from getting too worked up about it. It's a natural result of the way we've chosen to live. I like the expansive, resource splurging way we've chosen to live (all of us, not just Americans). I think future generations will adjust to the future conditions we've helped bring about, and will find ways to cope with those conditions and live as well as they can. I don't like the idea that I should sacrifice my comfort on their behalf. The earth will be there for them, a different earth with its own set of challenges, but they'll cope, like we've coped with the earth and challenges handed down to us (how much damage do you think that messy Industrial Revolution did before we came along?).

The ecological dangers that trouble me are natural disasters which threaten us all over the world as we speak and can send us back to the Stone Age in a minute.

[so lacklustre]

GWB wasn't president in the "20th" but he is definitely the stupidest of the 21st. In any case are you not forgetting Reagan, he always came across (over here at last) as extremely stupid.

[pophead2k]

I'm no Reagan fan (his administration's actions in Central America were literally criminal, and during his tenure guys like Saddam got free reign as long as they were against the Soviets) but he was wily. He loved to come across as kind of simple, but the mind, before the disease, was definitely sharp. There's actually a great SNL skit from back in the day on this very theme- I'll try to find it and post. I believe Eisenhower also liked to present himself as a little slow on the uptake in front of the press, but was an absolute whip in private. I just wish Bush was pretending to be an idiot.

[mood swung]

I live in the Northeast, and spend most of my days in NYC in and amongst people of different economic levels and have never met anyone who can't afford Christmas presents

.

You must live in the extreme Northeast. Like the North Pole. There are lots of people who can't afford Christmas presents. Or if they CAN afford them, it's because they can't afford health insurance and thus have some "extra" money. Normally, you are the most lucid thinker on this board, alexv, so I must be misunderstanding you. Being employed at minimum wage is almost like not being employed at all.

[Who Shot Sam?]

I live in the Northeast, and spend most of my days in NYC in and amongst people of different economic levels and have never met anyone who can't afford Christmas presents

.

You must live in the extreme Northeast. Like the North Pole. There are lots of people who can't afford Christmas presents. Or if they CAN afford them, it's because they can't afford health insurance and thus have some "extra" money.

That's the thing. My wife and I could be considered middle-class to upper middle-class and I have no idea where we are going to get the funds. And it's not due to extravagant spending on flat-screen TVs and the like. It's things like health insurance and child care costs, which continue to rise as our incomes remain fairly stagnant. People have less disposable income and are sticking more and more items on credit cards not because they are lazy and slothful, but because they are being squeezed in so many other directions.

[Mike Boom]

Which leads me to global warming.Clearly GWB is not to blame. I guess we are, as a species. And that's what makes me refrain from getting too worked up about it

I really find it hard to believe the apathy shown by people about this. It should be THE number 1 issue. The point is that these sort of Global changes happen exponentially. Once things get totally out of control, which they just about are already , the shit will hit the fan a lot quicker than you think. Imagine the mess Katrina made on a Global scale, New York , London , Miami, Boston , Bombay, Tokyo - all flooded.
Talk about fiddling while Rome burns ...

[alexv]

So Lack, I'm with pophead on Reagn and brains. He wasn't our most educated president, but he was certainly smart and engaged enough. The publication of hhis papers and letters in the last few years have pretty much destroyed the myth that he was a dopey president. Plenty of folks disagree with his policies, but he changed the course of politics over here in a pretty fundamental way. To me he was the conservative equivalent of Roosevelt (despised by conservatives as much as Reagan was by liberals).

Mood and Sam, I was being brutally honest with my comment, which I knew would wrankle some but I made it in a completely honest way: I don't live in the North Pole, and although I live in an upper middle class community, I have many friends, co-workers, acquantances and family who can be considered middle class, lower middle class and working poor.

The differing economic conditions of these people have not noticably worsened during the Bush years. That's just me talking specifically about this wide subset.

I don't want to denigrate the personal issues that individual families have, and I apologize if my comments came across that way (it was late at night, and I get worked up when I read generalizations like Blue's on this issue).

I did note that, of course, any country, no matter how wealthy has folks who go through bad times, and that happens during any economic period. What i was getting at was Blue's using the christmas present issue as evidence of the economy being in shambles. That's just plainly not supported by the facts.

[mood swung]

The differing economic conditions of these people have not noticably worsened during the Bush years. That's just me talking specifically about this wide subset

Most people hesitate to advertise their poverty.

I am not bright enough to spar with you on this. I do know that the price of gas is having a massive impact on my discretionary spending. And I don't really think I'm just "going thru bad times" and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

[miss buenos aires]

Which leads me to global warming.Clearly GWB is not to blame. I guess we are, as a species. And that's what makes me refrain from getting too worked up about it. It's a natural result of the way we've chosen to live. I like the expansive, resource splurging way we've chosen to live (all of us, not just Americans). I think future generations will adjust to the future conditions we've helped bring about, and will find ways to cope with those conditions and live as well as they can. I don't like the idea that I should sacrifice my comfort on their behalf. The earth will be there for them, a different earth with its own set of challenges, but they'll cope, like we've coped with the earth and challenges handed down to us (how much damage do you think that messy Industrial Revolution did before we came along?).

The ecological dangers that trouble me are natural disasters which threaten us all over the world as we speak and can send us back to the Stone Age in a minute.

Um... and are you sure that global warming has nothing to do with these potentially catastrophic natural disasters? Hasn't global warming been linked to more intense hurricane seasons? Wouldn't a rise in the sea level make us all much more vulnerable to flooding? I'm just not sure how you can be so blithely unconcerned with one and worried about the other.

[alexv]

MBA. the kind of ecological disasters I worry about are really big ones, not rises in sea levels or more frequent hurricanes. Those things are bad, of course, but we can handle them. I don't consider more intense hurricane seasons to be "catastrophic" to our survival in this planet. Maybe certain areas are in greater danger, but by the same token other areas of the world face improving conditions.

I worry about the effects on the USA , for example, of the giant earthquake that lurks just below Yellowstone Park and which, when it blows, will destroy the ability of our midwest breadbasket to feed most of the world and will change our climate in a really catastrophic way. Things like that. Bill Bryson wrote this really great book about it. I can't remember the name, but when I do I will post it.

Much of the talk about global warming, from those who worry about us destroying our planet, reminds me of the crazy talk back in the 60s and 70s from the no nukes crowd. There was a fundamental correctness about the basic position (you have to be careful about nuclear proliferation), but ideology took over (in that case lefty notions about the military/industrial complex (remember that), the cold war, peace over war etc) and the whole thing got blown way out of proportion.

Global warming crazy talk strikes me as similar: a fundamentally correct premise (we shouldn't destroy ourselves), which in the hands of the ideological nuts (in this case the environmentalist nuts, the anti-globalization nuts, the anti-corporate nuts) gets blown way out of proportion, blaming anyone who doesn't play by their rules (ride bikes, ride small cars etc.) for destroying our planet. Turns me off.

Mood, the high cost of gas pisses me off to. I think the main cause of that is the fact that gas has become a commodity that gets traded now like pork barrels used to and we are at the mercy of twenty-five year olds with computer programs who are getting rich on trading oil. The cat's out of the bag on that one and I'm not sure we can control it. I do remember when back in the 70s we all bought little japanese cars to save on gas. It amazes me that we are still driving the big SUVs, even in the face of gas prices that are exhorbitant. I can't explain that one.

[mood swung]

You might want to worry about the poisoning of that great big aquifer whose name escapes me at the moment. (Clearly, I am not one of the environmentalist nuts).

I was so incensed at your 'I don't see it, so it's not happening' dismissal of the Christmas present problem alexv, that I had this long imaginary discourse - well, that's probably too polite a word - maybe social interaction? that'll do, long imaginary social interaction with you wherein I explained the line that divides the Haves from the rest of us ordinary Joes. And I thought about how yes, there could be economic disparity over the 200k line, and how that must be fun but kind of a catty, social-climbing fun (and there's plenty of cattiness and social-climbing below the line). And I thought I would ask you just how much a house like my own (3 beds, 1.5 baths, large lot) would cost in this suburban utopia in which you live, and I realized that there probably aren't any 3/1.5s (except maybe those MIL addons). And then I realized that I was in Walmart, equiping the Swung household for the upcoming week and that I had lost my list.

And that is the difference between us. I'm out there trying to remember my list (a/k/a dealing with the economic reality) and you live in a world where everybody has Christmas presents.

So, you owe me the $67 I went over budget.

And, oh yeah, I think there are some people along the Gulf Coast who might say their economies were in shambles.

It's that 'trickle down' economy thing, I suppose.

[Mike Boom]

but ideology took over (in that case lefty notions about the military/industrial complex (remember that), the cold war, peace over war etc) and the whole thing got blown way out of proportion.

Yep, thank God that whole "peace over war" thing has blown over.