Should we execute murderers?

Gillibeanz · Post by **Gillibeanz** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:41 am

Ropes topical questions inspired me to ask these ones...

Do you think we should execute them - or spend millions of pounds keeping them locked up for life? If neither of these how should they be dealt with? Should a life sentance mean life or should they do less?

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:18 pm

If killing anybody is such a terrible crime
Why do those bloodthirsty callers come 'round from time to time?

It won't make it even, it won't bring 'em back...

Thou shalt not kill - God

If we are going to execute killers just to save cash, then why not just lob a chemical agent into every death row in the country?

DNA evidence is freeing innocent people from prisons in the USA almost everyday. It makes you wonder how many innocent folks are railroaded into prison because so many jurors think the prosecutorial system is infallible.

Besides, there are worse punishments than death. A lifetime of solitary confinement is a humane punishment and a good deterrent. The idea that one person should get death and another simple prison when convicted of the same crime is fundamentally unfair.

One of the most basic terrors of mankind is the fear of death. All humans have an innate will to survive, and to place someone in a prison cell for many years while they await their execution amounts to cruel and unusual punishment, and is therefore unconstitutional in the USA.

In my view, the executioner is a murderer. I know Noise feels differently, as it's all a matter of tiny details in the law.

Gillibeanz · Post by **Gillibeanz** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:32 pm

I dont agree with executing murderers either Rope - 2 wrongs dont equal a right! I do think everyone in prison should be made to work in prison though and contribute something back into society.

Maybe we could use murderers for spare body parts for organ donation etc?.....only kidding!

Post by **BlueChair** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:43 pm

I voted for no, but like, if someone kills a lot of people and keeps breaking out of jail and killing more people, then yeah, kill them.

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:54 pm

Hey Blue, maybe we could chain them to the floor!

Gilli, what if we forced them to knit doilies while in solitary?

PlaythingOrPet · Post by **PlaythingOrPet** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:27 pm

Funny you should bring this up, Gilli.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 48,00.html
Quite infamous around these parts. My dad is always reading books on this case.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:50 pm

I voted no also but it's hardly cut and dried.
I agree with much that has already been said:
There are gabillions of dollars spent every year on keeping death row prisioners alive and the other inmates as well.

[Has anyone heard this one, it was on talk radio a few weeks ago?
I believe it's in the courts in Washington or Oregon where it is to be decided whether a convicted death row inmate should get a kidney transplant. He was convicted in 1997, I believe, of stabbing to death an 18yr. old girl and her 45yr.old mother. The mother survived the 17 stab wounds and identified the guy. Anyway, apparently he's been on a kidney dialysis machine for his many years in prison (wow and that's sooo expensive too) and now his prision doctor is saying he's a prime
candidate for an organ transplant. So there ya go.
There are lists and lists of people who are waiting for organs. It's not like, oh, need an organ? Oh here's one.
And I understand that the prospective recipients are very well screened.
If you don't have medical insurance or they feel that you won't be able to afford the expensive drugs you'll need after your transplant, then you're out. Of course the prison inmate doesn't have to worry about any of that because all his expenses are taken care of courtesy of the American taxpayer.

So what do ya do? I beleive that the argument is is this cruel and unusual punishment to deprive this guy a transplant.....but he's freakin on death row!!]

I agree also that there are much worse punishments than execution (big deal, stick a needle in my arm and soon I'll fall asleep...) Oh, and what about the little girl you raped and tortured and chopped off her arms and legs?? Who's doing the suffering here??
The initial emotion is yes! kill em! But I think it far worse for them to rot in a prision cell til they die.
And what a bout those prison cells? Pretty gushy huh?
Game rooms with pool tables and basketball courts and weight rooms.
Fantastic cable tv and movies. Regular medical care and three squares a day. And let's not forget about the great drugs. Hmmmm, there are people who would KILL to live like that!
OH, imagine that......
Yes, keep them locked up. NO PAROLE. None of this prison early release because of over crowding crap. PUT THEM TO WORK FOR GOD"S SAKE. Keep the roads and highways clean and in repair. Dig a freakin ditch or whatever!!!!!!
And all that extra cirricular bullshit is RIDICULOUS! Big screen tvs and basketball courts and the finest drugs you'll ever find anywhere.
C'MON!!! Does this sound not quite right to anyone else?
When you commit such violent and heinous crimes against humanity and society you waive all of your privileges as a memeber of society.
That's it, no questions asked. No bargaining. Deterrants to commiting a crime? What deterrants?

Yeah, now I'm all angry and shit. Injustice doesn't go well with my Sunday dinner.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:19 pm

No. I think it is cut and dried. Sweat Pear - your counter argument seems to based around money. Very pooer argument imo, if we used this as the basis then:
1. We woudn't have skools
2. No freeways
3. say goodbye sewer systems
4. Bury your own rubbish
5. Billions wouldn't be spent on the space programme (hey maybe you do have a point)
6. The raping of foreign lands would have to be ceased (hey I now see you point, shoot the murdering low down sons of bitches

)

A rope leash wrote -

Thou shalt not kill - God

He may have been right on this one, but don't believe every thing he says.

A rope leash wrote -

The idea that one person should get death and another simple prison when convicted of the same crime is fundamentally unfair.

But which one is it unfair on?

A rope leash wrote -

In my view, the executioner is a murderer.

Surely it is the state or the state governor that is the murderer (or the president) for making executions legal?

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:32 pm

In effect, all members of the society that executes are guilty of killing, because the killing is done "in their name". Of course, the individual cannot stop what the mob has determined to do, but nonetheless the blood is on everyone.

Good question on the fairness issue. Given most people's desperate fear of death, I would think that in almost all cases the convicted would choose life in prison over execution.

Yeah, I use that "shalt not kill" thing because so many Christians seem to forget that one when it comes to revenge, or war.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:15 am

No, SLL, my arguement wasn't based on money at all. If it came across that way it 's just my ineptness at being able to express my point of view. I know I'm all over the place, as I am on many issues, because I just don't know what the answers are.
I was trying to point out the sheer RIDICULOUSNESS and unfairnes in the prison system. Sure, huge amounts of money are wasted (as everywhere else) but there are much better ways to spend that money other than cow-towing to violent criminals who have chosen to forfeit their privileges in this society. When I said there are people who would kill to have some of the ammenities of prison life, I wasn't being facetious.
I could write pages about that (but don't worry, I won't!) but just take, for instance, the welfare system, birth control, drug abuse, single parent families, minimum wage, the incredible cost of higher education........
Those things and more that contribute to the breakdown of the family unit and are threatening our present, our future and our very existance.

I agree with the man....this world is an ugly place and I find little joy in what I see when I look around.

shabbydoll · Post by **shabbydoll** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:24 am

My case against capital punishment is pretty simple. I just put myself in the shoes of an innocent person condemned to death. One innocent person dying in such a way is too much.

miss buenos aires · Post by **miss buenos aires** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:52 am

I cannot stand it when people talk about prison as if it's some sort of Disneyland dream vacation. Have you ever been to jail, Sweet Pear, or talked to someone who's served time, or worked in the prison system? It's not fun, it's not a reward for breaking the law. And even if there were all the amenities you claim, can that really make up for the loss of freedom, and being treated like an animal?

And what exactly is your problem with birth control?

mood swung · Post by **mood swung** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:43 am

Some people deserve killing. Give 'em F. Lee and Co to defend 'em. Then follow thru on the sentence. In Tennessee, we don't even prosecute death penalty cases any more, because if convicted they sit on death row for years--no one's been put to death in about 25 years or more. A death sentence is sometimes threatened to get the defendant to plead guilty in exchange for life without parole.

And just for A rope leash, you can choose which of God's messages on this subject that you want to believe. Part One of His word says 'an eye for an eye' and Part Two says 'turn the other cheek.'

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:02 am

My intial reaction was NO....don't kill them, that's morally incorrect...(I am a lover of life after all)...then I saw one person mention that money would be saved...and then said..hmmm maybe just kill 'em and save some cash...but then I thought...hmmm..they sit on death row anyway with 500 appeals and cost more money than regular cons.....

Then I said ...."throw them in the cage with Bubba, where they will be anally assaulted the rest of their wretched lives"...

Anyone who thinks prison is a cake walk should read "So You're Going to Prison"...a cute little book!

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:10 am

This topic reminds me of a wonderful joke I heard.

3 men are in the jungle, and are suddenly surrounded by natives. They are captured and taken before the tribal king.

They are allowed to choose their own sentence...DEATH or UUNGA BUUNGA.

The first prisoner chooses UUNGA BUUNGA and is immidiately bent over and raped savagely in the anus by a huge well endowned man.

The second prisoner chooses UUNGA BUUNGA and is immidiately bent over and raped savagely in the anus by a huge well endowned man.

The third prisoner is appalled and chooses DEATH......whereupon the King promply decrees the sentence of DEATH by UUUNGA BUUNGA.

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:53 pm

The problem with this question is 'we'. It's far easier if you ask me whether I think killing a dude is worth doing, and if I know their mind. It's all so ridiculously hypothetical though. I wouldn't have a clue unless I'm in a situation.

I hate the 'we' mentality. No vote from me.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:14 pm

miss buenos aires wrote: And what exactly is your problem with birth control?

There's not enough of it.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:22 pm

I voted yes, but I would like to elaborate. It should be the exception, not the rule with murder. Timothy McVeigh deserved the death penalty that he got. The average murderer should rot in prison and do hard labor for life without the possibility of parole. I'd be in favor of most rapists getting the death penalty, however. What they did transcends the right to live.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:06 pm

I didn't say that prison was a cake walk. And I don't know about where you all live but I try to keep up on my current local affairs (No, I'm not an authority on anything and don't claim to be.) I know for a fact though, that a while back the prison here (which is funded by the taxpayer, of which I am one) had a bit of a controversy over money spent to build a brand new state of the art gym/basketball court. And something else about new televisions.
Sorry, but I have a problem with that. When there are hard working, tax paying citizens who are too poor to afford medical care, who have to work two and three jobs to make ends meet, who may not live in "the best " part of town and are subject to unwanted criminal activity (drugs, guns, gangs.....), when schools are facing cut back after cut back because there just isn't enough to go around......
If you think that there aren't people living like that and much worse, then you're living in a dream world.
Have you ever listened to rap or hip-hop?
Part of the reason I think alot of people are "opposed" to rap or soooo offended by it's content is because they just don't want to be faced with the fact that these things are a reality. These are people's lives.
I didn't mean to imply that the prison system is flawless. (I was assuming that that would be understood because we all know that nothing, even at it's best, is flawless.) And to clarify, I didnot mean to imply that all people sent to jail should rot there forever. Noiseradio said that well and I agree.
I do not condone nor do I ignore the reality of the brutality that takes place in our prisons. It's not cut and dried at all. I don't know what any of the answers are. It's easy to say this or that when speaking about hypathetical situations. The best I can do is go round and round with the same questions as everyone else and when called upon to voice my opinion or stance on an issue (voting) try to be as just and fair as possible.
I very much try to put myself in someone's shoes before I make a judgement (private or otherwise).
"There but for the grace of God go I."

Bamboo said it well. I should have left it at that.

(I'm still not too good with the quotes or else i would have added Noise and Bamboo's for clarity.)

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:40 am

SweetPear - You're mixing up issues.

The fact that

tax paying citizens who are too poor to afford medical care, who have to work two and three jobs to make ends meet

has nothing to do with the amount of money being spent on prisons. It doesn't make it right, but they're two different issues.

stormwarning · Post by **stormwarning** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:52 am

Noise, what's "an average murderer" ?

- somebody who murders for pleasure
- somebody who murders for financial gain
- somebody who murders for passion
- somebody who murders for revenge
- somebody who murders due to diminished responsibility
- somebody who murders as a result of insufficient medical/psychological care
- somebody who murders as a representative of the state

I can't answer this, so I'd have to say "No" to the death penalty until we're willing to apply the same rules to the people at the very top of the ladder.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:53 pm

Your average murderer would be the one who performs the most common type of murder for the most common rype of motive. Most murders are crimes of passion, as opposed to pre-planned mass murders. Hitler would deserve the death penalty. Some guy who kills his wife's lover deserves to rot in prison for all time.

It's arbitrary, but we're talking philosophy, not practicality. And we're talking hypothetically, so it makes no difference at all. When it's you or me in some part of the situation actually experiencing these things, I expect our opinions might radically change.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:20 pm

What about someone who commits a kinder murder?

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:16 pm

They should be inducted into the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:03 pm

so lacklustre wrote:SweetPear - You're mixing up issues.

The fact that
tax paying citizens who are too poor to afford medical care, who have to work two and three jobs to make ends meet
has nothing to do with the amount of money being spent on prisons. It doesn't make it right, but they're two different issues.

SLL, I know I'm all over the place a lot of the time but I'm not mixing up issues here.
It's ALL* funded by taxpayer money and I'm merely pointing out that there are, when choices need to be made, better and more justifiable ways to use those funds other than making prisons more comfortable places to be.

*By ALL, I mean is more funds need to be directed toward remedying healthcare and childcare and minimum wage, etc.....which, IMHO, are much more immediate and justifiable causes than pouring money into the prison system.
Privatization needs to be considered more seriously.

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