Post Your Favourite Sep.11th Theory

Extreme Honey · Post by **Extreme Honey** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:21 am

You don't have to actually believe them, just post the ones you come accross that you think are interesting or weird.

http://www.rotten.com/library/conspirac ... _theories/

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:42 am

That's a nice summary.

anjabro · Post by **anjabro** » Sun May 14, 2006 3:36 am

Here's a good one...

http://www.911hoax.com/

and here's a page I found with a lot of clips I hadn't seen before...

http://www.terrorize.dk/911/

...It's in Danish, so I don't know what their tack is, but there is mention of missiles, bombs, lasers, etc.

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun May 14, 2006 8:24 pm

>DELETED DUE TO ITS DISRESPECTFUL NATURE<

LessThanZero · Post by **LessThanZero** » Sun May 14, 2006 8:31 pm

We don't look hapless for not catching Osama yet....do we?

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:22 pm

Rope, I think I said it was nice to have you back. I've changed my mind.

I love your implication that "Saudi Arabian immigrants" wouldn't be able to fly planes "expertly," or that, before September 11th, passenger safety wasn't the first-- and more or less only-- concern in the case of hijackings, for the pilots and the US Navy alike. I'd love to hear what your rants would have been if the US Navy had shot down four full American airliners in our own airspace. Actually, no, I wouldn't.

Oh, and by the way, learning to fly already-aloft aircraft into tall buildings on a super clear day is not that hard, especially given some flight time and some extracurricular tutoring on big jets. Even for Saudi immigrants! Learning to fly aircraft safely in every possible weather and situation, and land them, and follow US aviation rules, etc.-- that's harder. However, the terrorists didn't need to learn those parts, now did they?

You can say your story is being censored all you like. And I'll say right back that dwelling on such crap is hugely dishonorable to the thousands of people who died, and, frankly, to the decent people who work for the US government (no, they're not all sleeping with the devil like Hillary Clinton; oh wait, that's Average's conspiracy, funny how the wackjob right and the wackjob left often meet each other out behind the ideological barn for a quick fuck). Sorry, I'm not going to be convinced by you, Charlie Sheen, Ed Asner, "a reverend" (um, is that supposed to be impressive?), a TINY few academics (hey, Harvard had a tenured, Pulitzer-Prize-winning professor of Psychiatry who was convinced aliens, of the green-skinned, not brown-skinned type, were among us, but that doesn't mean he was right, only that he was a nut-job) and a guy whose only positions before working for Bush were for rather out-there think tanks. Yes, and lots of other people on the Net, I *know*.

I'm an ass for even bothering to write this, as you're only looking to bait people (you as much as said that was your aim). But I can't help it, because you really fucking offend me. And don't patronize me by saying I need to be offended. I'm plenty offended by the world on an hourly basis, believe me. Which is why dwelling on such bullshit as you do is so offensively counter-productive to me.

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:54 pm

Okay, I'll stop!

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Sun May 14, 2006 10:17 pm

...never mind that many of those people you say I disrespect would still be alive if our air forces shot those planes down.

...but then, there wouldn't be an excuse to get your war on, huh?

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:27 pm

Yo, rope

Well this one is an interesting one http://www.policestate21.com/get_your_c ... 11_ips.htm it shows some pretty convincing evidence of that a Boeing 757 couldn't have hit the Pentagon.... there was only a 16ft hole in the wall before the walls burnt down. And the damage crews didn't find the debris from that plane..........

And other stuff about the planes hitting the towers and about the pancake effect that some rescue workers observed and retell enthusiastically in unison, in agreement. And other incriminating stuff.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:56 am

A rope leash wrote:>DELETED DUE TO ITS DISRESPECTFUL NATURE<

So, the boy who cried censorship censors himself. Indeed, your thinking on this topic (if you can call it thinking, cuz to me it seems more like all-or-nothing simplifications-- you're either in the know, or you're a blind follower--rather than any sort of dialectical process) absolutely offends me. But, as the now joking expression goes, I despise what you say, but I absolutely defend your right to say it.

The idea that you would've supported the shooting down of our own planes strikes me as utter bullshit. You'd be on the same websites reading and repeating garbage about the fascist police state that killed its own citizens. And frankly, I might be, too, because if those planes had been shot down, we wouldn't know, dramatically and specifically, that those who hate us in this world would and could baldly commit such an atrocity (at least not until the paperwork emerged, years later, showing that we'd had plenty of intelligence indicating precisely that possibility).

I can't stand our current Executive branch, and I'm regularly floored and disgusted by the level of cynicism our politicians AND citizens exhibit, on all corners of the political spectrum. But I trust Government as a concept, yes. I think our system of government is among the finest ever developed, if not THE finest, and I do all I can to defend and maintain it, by not making bullshit generalizations such as "if you don't trust the government, the secret agents might get ya" or, for that matter, living under a self-righteous delusion that my own perspective is that of an omniscient being, by making statements like "We will learn so much more. It will be dirty, foul, sickening. But the butt of all the jokes will be exonerated by history once the the truth confronts you."

I don't believe in comforting black-and-white analyses of the world that sound like this: "the government is out to screw you and must be fought, not reformed, no matter what it does;" or like this "my God will show you I was right when you kneel before him and I waltz past you through the pearly gates".

I make mistakes in my thinking. A shitload of them. But I try to improve, and keep thinking. I strongly believe that the truth is complicated and messy, that it shifts and is hard to follow, but I also believe it exists. And that changing one's mind is an inevitable and ongoing part of learning to understand it. Aspects of what you say affect me and make me think, and I welcome that. Same with he-who-must-be-answered-point-by-point. What I don't get is, why is the entire middle region of possible truths looked on as somehow dangerous and naive, and monolithic styles of good-guy/bad-guy thinking as more noble and plausible? The world is dramatic enough. Must there be a DaVinci Code-style or fundamentalist explanation for everything? In my opinion(!) that is where the danger lies, in the seduction of entertaining and dramatic explanations that exonerate us from dealing with the ordinary functional truth.

And now I will try my best, for the umpteenth time, to shut up on politics.

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Mon May 15, 2006 8:15 am

"Must there be a DaVinci Code-style or fundamentalist explanation for everything? In my opinion(!) that is where the danger lies, in the seduction of entertaining and dramatic explanations that exonerate us from dealing with the ordinary functional truth."

Agreed, it's a danger. There is also danger in accepting the official version of events without careful deconstruction. I've spoken a lot about 9-11 since the day it happened, and it has always been through the lens of distrust, because I know by history that leaders will fool their own people to get what they want. A lot of these guys in the current administration wanted a new Pearl Harbor...these desires are well documented by the Project for a New American Century, a think tank in which many of the current and former advisors of our pResident were participants in.

Now, they either got lucky, or they prayed real hard, or they pulled a fast one. Honestly, Mech, if you really take the time to read some of those whacko websites, you'll see that some of them aren't completely whacked. Read the timelines, see the eyewitness videos. Of course, don't be gullible. The basis of my view "theory" lies in how those buildings fell. Look at who owned them, who controlled the security, what was going on at the WTC in the days before the attack happened...then you'll see that what I say is not impossible.

Of course, there are whacko theories. I saw one the other day that claimed that a UFO was present as the towers fell. There was a picture. It was a helicopter. There's also people who say it was a missle, not an airplane that hit the Pentagon, and that there was a "pod" on the airplanes that hit the towers. They have no real evidence, just some fuzzy photos, and a lot of hype. They can't be trusted, and they might even be official souring of the pot. You see, when I say buildings don't fall like that, Mech and others automatically put me in the UFO-Elvis-Pod people camp, of which I can assure you that I am not. Yes, I enjoy speculating on such matters, but my tin-foil hat is not worn religiously. Why is it people feel so compelled to lable me a conspiracy nut? Maybe it's becasue they are secret government agents, and they don't even know it.

The main problem with discussions such as this is that folks do not read carefully. Here's Mech, implying that I think Saudis would not be able to fly airliners. All I did was call them "19 Saudi Arabian immigrants", which I think is technically incorrect because some of them were from Dubai or somesuch place, but everyone knows what I mean. These guys were not pilots, they had some lessons, but Mech is certain that modern airliners are so easy to fly that it would have been a breeze to bring them in right on target. Perhaps it is true. And the guy in the cave in Afghanistan did what, exactly? Gave them money and told them to do it? Since he's part of a family with close ties to the Bush clan, then why has he been so difficult to capture? Maybe Daddy Bush said let'em go, we got what we want?

Let's say that the official line is true. (By the way, the government had most of the story of what happened lined out just days after the event. There was no thorough investigation yet, but they had photos and names of all the hijackers and they had told the press exactly what happened. Amazing.) Anyway the official story is true, let's say...all these guys are now getting their war one, trying to kill those that "hate" us, all in the name of "respecting" those that died on 9-11. Think for a minute, please...terrorism will never be stopped with an army. Terrorism is a tactic used when someone who wants to fight has no army. All an army can do about terrorism is slaughter grand numbers of people in the hopes they will get a few combatants. Everytime our clumsy armaments kill the innocent, the loved ones begin to hate us, and some turn to terrorism, so the war perpetuates, which is exactly what the corporations want...perpetual war in Oilland.

Corporations influence Congress and the Executive branch greatly. They acquire the government contracts, they build the war machinery, they own the major media outlets.

If anyone thinks I'm disrespecting the victims of 9-11 by speaking my mind, they have no idea what freedom is. If you want to see someone disprespecting the memory of the victims, try our wonderful Gee Dubya Bee and Crew.

Here's a website that chronicles the administration's deeds since 9-11:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info

This site does not delve much into conspiracy, it just links to international news sources and comments some from there. Take a look. Do you really think all this stuff is bogus, made-up, or faked? (sure, it's hyped, perhaps, but come on...what isn't?) Do you even wonder why this stuff is not on the televised evening news? An incomplete the truth is much the same as a lie.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Mon May 15, 2006 10:09 am

Well, look, I'm hardly going to get into a quote-a-thon with you when you've deleted your original posts. But you wrote a brief description of the events of 9/11, sarcastically framing them as a conspiracy theory, and yes, your first phrase said something like "I like the one where Saudi immigrants expertly flew a plane into a tall building", and given your tone, yes, it was part of your sarcasm that Saudi immigrants couldn't do such a thing. ANd I stand by my assertion that those well-educated, fundamentalist-frenzied immigrants could certainly accurately steer a commercial jet for an hour or less if they had training, 'intelligence' (publically available) on the specific planes, knives to the throats of the pilots, perfect weather, and a wish to die, all of which they had, very much by design.

I have read some of those websites, some of those eyewitness accounts, yes. I've also read the eyewitness accounts of hundreds and hundreds of people who saw otherwise. Do I trust the officially reported details of what we knew when, and what we chose to do with that information? No. Do I think Saddam had anything to do with it? No. And neither do lots of informed people. That doesn't make us unknowing agents of the government, it makes us extremely pissed-off citizens who are fucking sick of corrupt administrations (and I don't blindly exempt the Clinton admin, by the way) rushing us to war. Did I ever say I supported the war? Did I ever say I didn't think Dubya is HUGELY disrespecting those victims, to say nothing of the young, mostly underclass men he's sending around the world to kill other mostly underclass men, women and children? Terrorism can be used by armies and has been, many times, including, imo, by our own.

I agree about corporate greed and influence, believe me. But I do not think they control every aspect of everything. I actually believe that people are stronger than that when they are trying to be, and I don't believe that such good people are entirely missing from the media, or from the government, or even, believe it or not, from corporations. On the contrary, I think good people are everywhere and the only way to make change is to try to identify them, and believe them if what they say is plausible makes logical sense. Do you think that ALL the people with integrity have retreated from the wide-ranging mainstream? I don't.

See, just because I believe that it was indeed foreign terrorists who brought those buildings down, it does not mean I am in lockstep with every action, reaction, official account, or explanation. An incomplete truth is NOT always the same thing as a lie (though an explanation made complete to give it the ring of truth is). Most of the time, it is a truth whose details are still being revealed.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Mon May 15, 2006 10:39 am

PS, I went to the site you mentioned, and the first related thing I saw while scrolling down was something called simply "Fall of the WTC". It's a 45-minute BBC piece. It only let me watch the first third or so (I tried a bunch of times to watch more, and will try again) but I think you might want to watch it. Of course, the BBC, to say nothing of the well-known head structural engineer during the design and construction of the towers 40 years ago, are puppets of the corporate machine, so who cares?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e12643.htm

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:22 am

There was hardly any coverage at the time of the damage from the Pentagon attack or of the crash site of the other plane... I found that very strange, you'd think it would have been all over the news.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 am

It was, here. Just less than the coverage of the WTC, for obvious reasons-- the loss of life was not only much larger, it was also more unclear. Thousands of people were still missing relatives, and the rubble was only barely touched.

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:04 pm

Mechanical Grace wrote:

See, just because I believe that it was indeed foreign terrorists who brought those buildings down, it does not mean I am in lockstep with every action, reaction, official account, or explanation. An incomplete truth is NOT always the same thing as a lie (though an explanation made complete to give it the ring of truth is). Most of the time, it is a truth whose details are still being revealed.

Well, we agree on something. I appreciate your comment and the way it is made.

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:09 pm

Mechanical Grace wrote:...that's Average's conspiracy, funny how the wackjob right and the wackjob left often meet each other out behind the ideological barn for a quick fuck.

Other than being a crude soundbite, I would love to know what this really means. Sounds to be composed to promote witicism, but meaningless. Did you get this one from one of Larry Flynts cartoons about Jerry Falwell?

anjabro · Post by **anjabro** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:10 am

I don't believe in conspiracy theories...I think a bunch of guys get together in a room and make them up...

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:37 am

Mr. Average wrote: Other than being a crude soundbite, I would love to know what this really means. Sounds to be composed to promote witicism, but meaningless. Did you get this one from one of Larry Flynts cartoons about Jerry Falwell?

Not sure what this might imply about my image, but I am not actually in the habit of reading Hustler. Maybe you are. It wasn't penned to promote witticism, it was penned to be witty. Hope you liked it.

Seriously, all I meant was, extreme ideology makes strange bedfellows. And it does. I hardly think I'm the first person to suggest that negative perspectives on the far right and the far left sometimes align-- e.g., an inherent hatred of government based on the fear that it holds too much power. Hitler started out a Socialist, after all, and Lyndon LaRouche considers himself a leftist. And though the far right avoids the word anarchy, I would say that in the case of survivalists and racial separatists and other such people, they promote just that.

However, if you don't consider yourself to be part of the nut-job right I don't see what would bother you about the idea. I brought your name into it because of your ongoing references to the theories that link Hillary Clinton (of whom I'm no huge fan, btw) and the Prince of Darkness (even if this time 'round it only involves a secret police force that murders people, not sacrificing children's blood or whatever the going story was a few years ago). I hate Bush a helluva lot more than I hate Senator Clinton, but I don't think either of them is scheming and pulling strings to the degree that such theories indicate. Now, Nancy Reagan, on the other hand... (I'm kidding).

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Wed May 17, 2006 8:39 am

The corporation has the rights of an individual, can speak as an individual, buy and sell as an individual, and is for all legal purposes, a "person". By law, this "person" must act solely in regards to the financial interests of the stockholders that make up the corporation, and the folks participating in the corporation must, by law, put the financial interests of the stockholders before any other interests they might be confronted with. This is the structure of law in a nation of laws that many refer to as the Frankenstein.

This monster has no body to prosecute, so it gets away with murder. Capitalism has a built in self-defense mechanism, and it starts with corporate law. It's not that the people who control corporations are never prosecuted for crimes, it's just rare, and most of the crimes that corporations are responsible for...pollution, disease, poverty...go unpunished, or they are charged fines that simply become the cost of doing business. This is how we get Enrons and WorldComs...in late stage capitalism, breaking and bending the laws turn out to be the best thing for the stockholders' financial interests.

So, when corporations run the Congress and the Executive branches by monetary fiat, and when they own the major media, and when they build and provide for the war machine...then Frankenstein is in charge. We are a nation of laws, and by law the folks who run corporations make decisions that they think will increase the bottom line figure for the stockholders. Layoffs, wage and benefit cuts, offshoring...all add to the value of a stock. One of the big lies of capitalism is that everyone can be rich. Very not true. Someone must suffer.

So let's say the oil boys needed to insure their domination of oil reserves in the Middle East. All they needed was a good ole boy Jesus-is-coming-soon buffoon to get elected, and they have enough completely unverifiable electronic voting systems in place to make sure it happens. Once he's in office, all they needed was another Pearl Harbor, and...hmmmm...here's some asbestos-filled buildings that are going to cost a fortune to update...excellent!

It's not all the corporations got together in a dark room and plotted out an evil plan. People often ask how consiracies are kept under cover, with the implication being that a lot of people would have to know, and someone would have to squeal eventually. But, only a handful of persons have to know everything about a plan like this, and everyone else just has to know what they have to know.

We know that governments and corporations operate in secret, and that those who work for them are bound by law to secrecy. Add to that a subtle threat of death by "accident", and people zip up good. We cannot possibly know exactly what happened, mostly because the government keeps the information under wraps. Don't blame me for conspiracy theories, blame the institutions of government that have shown time after time that what they classify as secret turns out to be cover for them rather than information sensitive to outside interests. I chose to distrust all government and major media information. That's my right.

Have you seen the video of the plane crashing into the Pentagon? They officially released it yesterday, but it's been leaked and on the web for years now. They say it shows the plane hitting the Pentagon, but all I see is a white streak and an explosion. The major media was all over it, and some said it proved the conspiracy whackos wrong...but, this is old stuff, and I still don't see the plane, so maybe they could release the other videos they have so we can all know for certain? No? What are they afraid of?

I know it's impossible to change people's minds, and seemingly trustable material on both sides and in the middle can be found on the web and other places. In the end, the individual must decide which information seems real, and which seems to be diversionary. Laugh all you want...I think those buildings were professionally demolished and I will until something other than the phony NIST report proves me incorrect. All the people, factors, and motivations were present for this to happen. I think it might have been an attack carried out by Muslim terrorists that was just allowed to happen, but I also think it could have been totally staged event.

O, I know...you just don't think our leaders would do that to their own people. They only do this kind of stuff to "other" people. Hey, a sick bastard is a sick bastard, and this is the New World Order..

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:21 am

As for my deletions, I did them as a favor to the sensitive. Just because I piss people off, it doesn't mean I'm not understanding of their torment.

Basically what I said in the deleted post on this thread is that the official story is a conspiracy theory. I used the phrase "19 Saudi Arabian immigrants", and Mech took it to mean that I was a racist who hates Arabs and doesn't think they could pull this stunt off. All I really said was that inexperienced pilots probably couldn't do it. But, as it is with all secret agents, when they run out of ammunition they must attack the messenger as being biased, immoral, or even evil. I'm used to it.

As for my deleted essay at Tin Pan Alley, I can repost that if anyone is interested.

A rope leash · Post by **A rope leash** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:25 am

I will not repost the ham sandwich.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:27 pm

I don't actually think you hate Arabs or are a racist; you've decried racism and homophobia lots of times on this board. I was taking the same sarcastic, blithe tone you'd taken in your original post, and repeating your act of over-simplifcation.

I love how you think I'm a secret agent and Average thinks I hate America and want it overthrown so I can sit around singing Kumbaya in peace, and you both think I'm blind and ignorant to the REAL problems and their incumbent solutions because I haven't got the guts to open my eyes. But see, having a different opinion to either of you does not mean I'm complacent, or complicit. And you might have noticed, it doesn't mean I believe any less passionately about what needs to be done.

I'm not a secret agent, knowingly or unknowingly, and you can fuck yourself if you think otherwise. And if you think I'm being rude in saying that, understand that I'd rather you tell me to fuck myself than accuse me of serving the government over the principals it's supposed to stand for.

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:56 am

Mechanical Grace wrote: I love how you think I'm a secret agent and Average thinks I hate America and want it overthrown so I can sit around singing Kumbaya in peace, and you both think I'm blind and ignorant to the REAL problems and their incumbent solutions because I haven't got the guts to open my eyes.

I don't believe I ever have implied or suggested that you want America to be overthrown. No, wait, I know that I never suggested it. I disagree with the oversimplistic notions that if we just talk to the enemy, and invoke diplomatic solutions, they will back off. Where I have taken great exception to your opinion is when you assert blame on America for the murderous and hateful rage of the Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists. A brief, junior-level look at world history is all you need to know to understand that the radical beliefs of those who interpret the Koran as a document of ethnic cleansing and calculated hate and murder have been around for centuries and centuries before the United States was a nation.

Don't think you are ignorant either. Never thought that. Just a member of the "Blame America First" crowd (and there are a lot of you guys...it's easier and rather in vogue). Hip, even.

Well, I don't think it's hip. I think it is treasonous and cowardly. But not ignorant.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:29 am

I do not ever blame America. I blame aspects of our Government, current and past, for what I see as cynical and sometimes even self-serving policies in largely unrelated reaction to acts of terrorism that were committed against us. And I blame some of our current and past policies, in part, for creating a more ripe ground for fundamentalism to spread. However, the only ones I blame for "the murderous and hateful rage of the Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists" are those Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists. I only compared you to Rope and mentioned the overthrowing bit because you have continued to assert that I sympathize with extremists and terrorists, which I do not, and that incenses me. If I over-simplified your reactions, that is why. To be angry at the lie that was and is "Mission Accomplished" is not to blame America.

Don't knock diplomacy. It doesn't just entail two men in suits sitting around drinking tea with their pinkies out (though I'd venture to say more can be done even in that manner than you're giving credit for). It also involves proper use of accurate intelligence, by a great many people in many positions, many but perhaps not all of them overt, to win those hearts and minds we're always talking about. I'm stopping there.

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petulant frenzy!

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