Katrina

This is for all non-EC or peripheral-EC topics. We all know how much we love talking about 'The Man' but sometimes we have other interests.
Post Reply
User avatar
Who Shot Sam?
Posts: 7097
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:05 pm
Location: Somewhere in the distance
Contact:

Post by Who Shot Sam? »

mood swung wrote:Tim(e), CNN is confirming the 'locked and loaded, shoot to kill' orders now.
sweet jesus.
That's compassion for you. Treating the folks in New Orleans the same way they treat terrorists in Iraq. This administration is so fucking clueless.
Mother, Moose-Hunter, Maverick
User avatar
bambooneedle
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:02 pm
Location: a few thousand miles south east of Zanzibar

Post by bambooneedle »

Presumably the need for the National Guard troops is for the people who are being totally reckless-- raping, beating other people up to steal from them, trying to shoot back etc. I'm not sure they (NGTs) would shoot at anybody who wasn't a real threat, but their presence would make a hell of a lot of people feel safer. They're defending hospitals, banks, food supplies, aid people... Cops aren't equiped to do all that or to enforce order on this level with mere handguns. They can't get around in helicopters and with their own food supplies. And it's not surprising that many of the cops have given up, having to deal with being local victims themselves. I'd say that the NG troops are essential. They should have foreseen all the opportunism and hence insisted on getting everybody out from the start.
Last edited by bambooneedle on Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Who Shot Sam?
Posts: 7097
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:05 pm
Location: Somewhere in the distance
Contact:

Post by Who Shot Sam? »

bambooneedle wrote:Presumably the need for the National Guard troops is for the people who are being totally reckless-- raping, beating other people up to steal from them, trying to shoot back etc. I'm not sure they (NGTs) would shoot at anybody who wasn't a real threat, but their presence would make a hell of a lot of people feel safer. They're defending hospitals, banks, food supplies, aid people... Cops aren't equiped to do all that or to enforce order on this level with mere handguns. They can't get around in helicopters and with their own food supplies. And it's not surprising that many of the cops have given up, having to deal with being local victims themselves. I'd say that the NG troops are essential.
Absolutely the NG is essential. Just do it in the right way.
Mother, Moose-Hunter, Maverick
User avatar
miss buenos aires
Posts: 2055
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:15 am
Location: jcnj
Contact:

Post by miss buenos aires »

If only we had more National Guard Troops...where did they all go? Oh wait...Iraq. And all their gear?...Iraq.

Check the date on this article:
LA National Guard Wants Equipment to Come Back From Iraq
--------------------

Yunji de Nies

August 1, 2005, 9:07 PM CDT

JACKSON BARRACKS -- When members of the Louisiana National Guard left for Iraq in October, they took a lot equipment with them. Dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers and generators are now abroad, and in the event of a major natural disaster that, could be a problem.

"The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," said Lt. Colonel Pete Schneider with the LA National Guard.

Col. Schneider says the state has enough equipment to get by, and if Louisiana were to get hit by a major hurricane, the neighboring states of Mississippi, Alabama and Florida have all agreed to help.

"As Governor Bush did for Ivan, after they were hit so many times, he just maxed all of his resources out, he reached out to Louisiana and we sent 200 national guardsmen to help support in recovery efforts," Col. Schneider said.

Members of the Houma-based 256th Infantry will be returning in October, but it could be much longer before the rest of their equipment comes home.

"You've got combatant commanders over there who need it they say they need it, they don't want to lose what they have, and we certainly understand that it's a matter it's a matter of us educating that combatant commander, we need it back here as well," Col. Schneider said.

And even if commanders in Iraq release the equipment, getting it home takes months.

"It's just the process of identifying which equipment we're bringing home, bringing it down to Kuwait, loading it on ships or aircraft however we're gonna get it back here and then either railing it in or trucking it in, so we're talking a significant amount of time before that equipment is back home," Schneider said.

Copyright (c) 2005, WGNO
User avatar
bambooneedle
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:02 pm
Location: a few thousand miles south east of Zanzibar

Post by bambooneedle »

insisted on getting everybody out from the start.
And facilitated it.

Besides maybe shooting to kill I wonder what they're doing with the different varieties of trouble makers... I don't think they'd be reading them their rights or writing out arrest papers.
User avatar
mood swung
Posts: 6908
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:59 pm
Location: out looking for my tribe
Contact:

Post by mood swung »

from CNN
Britney Spears, who was raised in Kentwood, Louisiana, posted a message on her Web site saying her family was safe and that her "thoughts and prayers go out to everyone" on the Gulf Coast.
I know everybody feels better now.


MBA, where did you get the national guard story?
Like me, the "g" is silent.
User avatar
miss buenos aires
Posts: 2055
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:15 am
Location: jcnj
Contact:

Post by miss buenos aires »

My sister sent it to me, but here is the original link:

http://abc26.trb.com/news/natguard08012 ... gno-news-1
User avatar
noiseradio
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:04 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Post by noiseradio »

I just keep thinking that I don't have any real problems. The ones I thought I had on Sunday don't seem worth mentioning anymore.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
User avatar
bambooneedle
Posts: 4533
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:02 pm
Location: a few thousand miles south east of Zanzibar

Post by bambooneedle »

Me too, I was about to complain about a bad case of sock creep in the random thoughts thread.
User avatar
DrSpooky
Site Admin
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:31 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by DrSpooky »

I hope I'm not going to hurt Pophead's feelings too much by doing this, but here goes.

I've had so many people on the board who have emailed, wishing to contribute to Pophead personally. After exchanging email with him, his conclusion was that he would advise those wanting to donate to pick a charity down south and send the money there. Still, he said that he would not turn away anything from us here at the board that we wanted to give him and Caroline personally.

Pophead is a very humble man, so again, I hope he takes this in the spirit in which it is intended.

If you would like to contribute to a fund that Spooky and I are setting up just for Dave and Caroline, email us and let us know, then click on the Paypal button in the right hand corner of your screen. We have the address where Dave is staying and we will make sure that the money is sent to him. They have to start ALL OVER. I just can't even imagine.

This isn't a plea for donations, just letting those of you who were interested know that this was available. Please email me or Spooky if you have any questions.
User avatar
Extreme Honey
Posts: 622
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: toronto, canada

Post by Extreme Honey »

This story turned out worse than I thought. People dying, looting, raping. The Politicians ensuring the people that it's all going to be taken care of soon while the media raves about the total mass mayhem in N.O. And on top of that, now the NG are going to start to kill. What do you get when you give a comman man a gun and a lisence to kill and when you've got poor Joe Doe who lost his house, his wife and all his few belongings and can't find any other way to survive than to snatch food from WalMart? Murder. Ng is just going to complicate things. I don't think the looters are thinking about the latest release of Windows when they've broken through.
This scenario is all too common, but to the people of N.O it's not. It's truly odd how unprepared america is.
Having said that, I hope that the water makes it's way home soon and the rebuilding begins as well, it's sad to see NO drift into the sea. A quetion: For those who have lost EVERYTHING, will the state construct them a new house? Where are they going to live?
Preacher was a talkin' there's a sermon he gave,
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved,
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
User avatar
DrSpooky
Site Admin
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:31 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by DrSpooky »

The response is good so far guys. The board members continue to impress me as some of the best people around.

I know Dave will surely benefit from what you are contributing. We'll take another two or three days and then send him what we have so far. Anything that comes in after that, we can send to him in another batch. We just wanted to send him something to get started.
User avatar
DrSpooky
Site Admin
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:31 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by DrSpooky »

After finding the Baton Rouge site that Dave passed along, I came across this:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/help.center/

It seems to be a list of reputable charities helping in the area.
laughingcrow
Posts: 2476
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:35 am

Post by laughingcrow »

Best wishes to all affected...here's hoping Pophead2k is ok.
User avatar
DrSpooky
Site Admin
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:31 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by DrSpooky »

I guess I am turning into a news whore. But here is an article about the impact of Katrina on the N.O. music scene.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/0 ... index.html
selfmademug

Post by selfmademug »

DrSpooky wrote:I guess I am turning into a news whore.
It's hard not to, the news is so shocking and scary. I find myself refreshing the New York Times website every ten minutes to see if there are any more words or pictures.

I'm giving money via my employer, because they're matching whatever I donate in that way. Beyond that, it feels like all I can do is try to stay informed. I'm so, so angry about the needless loss of life, and so frightened about the national fractiousness this has both revealed and exacerbated... it's easy to get an apocalyptic feeling from this, like this is the beginning of the major shit hitting the fan for this country. I suppose all you can do is hope that the better parts of human nature will prevail, and try to be an example of that in whatever way you can.
johnfoyle
Posts: 14852
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:37 pm
Location: Dublin , Ireland

Post by johnfoyle »

A bit harsh but food for thought all the same .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Independent ( London)


New Orleans was responsible for its own fate
The decisions which doomed the city were taken years before Bush became President

Bruce Anderson

Published: 05 September 2005

New Orleans has one thing in common with Manhattan. Neither is really a part of the United States. Both are tacked on to an alien mainland: Manhattan, a strutting ground for the world's rich; New Orleans, an enclave of decadence joyously disregarding the rest of the USA's puritan heritage. That is why New Orleans in now in such a mess.

True, the city had charm. Even if Creole cuisine is grossly over-rated while the sole merit of jazz is to be less cacophonous than blues, a place which gave birth to A Confederacy of Dunces has justified its existence. If not the greatest American novel, it is surely the most enjoyable one.

It was fun to sit behind the air conditioning in a cafe in the French Quarter, laisseing le bon temps roule, hot and slow and idle. But also criminal, violent, homicidal. That was the trouble with New Orleans. The decadence was not an affectation. The carnival was the affectation; the masks a thin disguise for poverty and chaos.

America is founded on work, responsibility and law. There is no more important item in the Bill of Rights than the unwritten one: that each and every American has the right to work his butt off. That is the basis of another right: this year shall be better than last year and next year will be better than this year. Not in New Orleans: that city is founded on laziness, irresponsibility and lawlessness.

There has been one problem with the American ethos. It works for the voluntary immigrants. Whatever their colour or creed, that is what drew them to the States. But large numbers of the descendants of the involuntary immigrants have spurned every opportunity to invest in the American dream. It is as if they regard the work ethic as tainted, because it was imposed on their forebears by slavery.

The historic wrongs are hideous. It cannot be easy for a young American black to come to terms with his ancestors' history, when so much of it is a cry of pain. But ethnic self-pity is not the answer. That is merely a form of ethnic self-destruction, perpetuating the enslavers' evil.

Yet much of the black community in New Orleans was in the grip of self-pity. Hispanics, Vietnamese, Africans: other poor immigrants worked hard, stayed together as families, brought up decent kids - and prospered. Nothing prevented the blacks of New Orleans from doing the same. Yet far too many chose not to. The city had an appalling drug-crime rate, an atrocious murder rate and above all, the worst hopelessness rate of any major city in a developed country. I suspect that at least 90 per cent of the looters were from one-parent families.

It is true that the President was too slow to react. But the US is not a unitary state. Under the American federal system of government, the individual states have much more power and responsibility than any local government unit in the UK. Yet for years, politics in Louisiana has been in the grip of a confederacy of corrupt dunces. Someone in Washington should have realised that neither the state authorities nor the city ones in New Orleans were capable of discharging their responsibilities.

There was a further problem. In recent years - and especially after 11 September - Washington has acquired more and more powers over domestic emergencies. So even in better-run states than Louisiana, Uncle Sam would have been expected to take control.

He should have. In A Confederacy of Dunces, Ignatius J Reilly insisted that the world needed more theology and geometry. Last week, New Orleans needed more government.

That said, earlier action from Washington would have mitigated the disasters' consequences, not eliminated them; saved a few hundred lives, not prevented the deaths of many thousands. But George Bush's enemies, not least in the BBC, unable to conceal their delight at his political misfortunes and their wish that these will prove permanent, are giving credence to the most absurd charges.

The decisions which doomed New Orleans were taken years before he became President, including the one to build the city in the first place. George Bush did not decree that the levees should be capable of withstanding a Grade 3 hurricane, not a Grade 5 one. It is true that, in recent years, Congress reduced the expenditure on flood defences in Louisiana. But hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent. Where did that money go?

Nor would Kyoto have prevent hurricane Katrina. This was not the worst hurricane in American history, and there is no evidence that the incidence of hurricanes is increasing. Climate change is still a combination of hypothesis, inexact science and political hysteria.

The incidence of hurricanes is part of the problem. New Orleaners are used to them, and used to disregarding them. The latest evacuation order was mandatory, which did not prevent it from being widely disobeyed. It may be that not everyone had transport. But if the state and city authorities had taken their own warnings seriously, they could have got many more people to safety.

Over the next few months, America will agonise over New Orleans. It ought to keep one point in mind. None of the looters was a neo-conservative.
selfmademug

Post by selfmademug »

New Orleans: that city is founded on laziness, irresponsibility and lawlessness.
What a bunch of utter bullshit, all of it. How the fuck does he know none of the looters was a neo-con? There's so much nonsense in this piece it's not worth poking holes in.
User avatar
pophead2k
Posts: 2403
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: Bull City y'all

Post by pophead2k »

A typical response from someone who knows nothing about the city, its history, its economy, or its people. If I was going to get mad about all of the misinformation I've heard spread about New Orleans the last six days, I'd have to throw myself off a bridge. On the way up to New York, on a radio station in Virginia, a caller and host were agreeing that God wiped out New Orleans because of its too-tolerant behavior.

Don't believe the hype folks- the mayor of New Orleans is a hero. While our ineffectual governor and our disagrace of an excuse for a FEMA director were flailing away over who was in charge, Ray Nagin was up to his neck in floodwater saving lives. He will inevitably get blamed for not doing 'enough' before the hurricane, but short of having a military force drag people from homes ala Gaza, it wasn't going to happen. Anyone who argues otherwise knows nothing about the people of New Orleans. I've been trying not to vent or get angry, but the news is taking a turn that is very frustrating to me. BTW, Dick Cheney has been on vacation in Wyoming for the last week. He's still on vacation today. I don't like Bush at all, but at least he's acknowledging in his way that the response was terrible.

Whew- I feel better. Thanks for the encouraging pms- they mean the world to me.
User avatar
DrSpooky
Site Admin
Posts: 822
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:31 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by DrSpooky »

Ignoring emotional rants for a second, let's not forget the sheer size of the area impacted -- this isn't just N.O.. If equipment had been placed close enough to be there in a day, it would likely have been destroyed. I spoke to someone at church yesterday who was taking classes in Hattiesburg (not mentioned in much so far) and it took them 13 hours to get to Huntsville. Most of that was behind a crew clearing debris from the interstate. Getting into the area would not have been any quicker.

Also my understanding is that the city and state governments guide FEMA to a large extent. There was no practical way either city or state government could reliably communcate to find out what needed to be done or to report it to those who could do something about it.

If there is any government fault to place, IMO it is just that our disaster plans did not have guidelines on when to give up on local information and just call in military support. Apparently, no contingency plans accounted for an utter lack of functional infrastructure remaining.

pophead, I am glad you and everyone else who is ok made it through this. I am truly sad about those who were not so lucky.

We need to remember that Mother Nature can be a bitch sometimes and have respect.
User avatar
noiseradio
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:04 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Post by noiseradio »

johnfoyle wrote:
New Orleans was responsible for its own fate
The decisions which doomed the city were taken years before Bush became President

Bruce Anderson

Published: 05 September 2005

...

Over the next few months, America will agonise over New Orleans. It ought to keep one point in mind. None of the looters was a neo-conservative.

This is satire, right? It's a greeeeaaaat big joke. No one wrote that in seriousness. It's got to be from the Onion or something. Right? Anyone? Pretty please with sugar on top tell me this is the set up, and the punchline is "The Aristocrats" or something.


Geez.


So the hurricane was God's wrath? I guess God must be pretty fuckin' pissed at red-staters then. Those Bible-thumpers in Biloxi and Moblie must really have done something heinous to upset him.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
User avatar
spooky girlfriend
Site Admin
Posts: 3007
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:19 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Contact:

Post by spooky girlfriend »

Doc and I are going to wait until in the morning or so and gather what has been collected so far to send to Pophead. Anything that is sent after that will be mailed to him in a few days. I thank you board people so much for your participation. We're able to help each other from all across the globe - there's something really special about that, especially since many of us have never met.

Again, if you want to contribute to the fund for Pophead, click on the Paypal button in the upper right hand of the screen. Whatever shows up will be sent straight to him.

I also thank those of you who have contributed in any other way to the Hurricane relief through various charities and organizations. I know all the donations are appreciated and will hopefully help those affected by this tragedy.
johnfoyle
Posts: 14852
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:37 pm
Location: Dublin , Ireland

Post by johnfoyle »

The column I posted yesterday ( in full because it's not freely available on the 'papers site) has drawn these reactions in today's edition -

http://comment.independent.co.uk/letter ... 310523.ece

Bruce Anderson is heartless and wrong

Sir: Your pugnacious columnist Bruce Anderson, in the most heartless commentary I have read on the impact of Hurricane Katrina (Opinion, 5 September), whereby he blames the victims, asserted: "there is no evidence that the incidence of hurricanes is increasing," adding "Climate change is still a combination of hypothesis, inexact science and political hysteria". Wrong on all counts!

There is now no argument that climate change - as against merely global warming - is a reality: the argument lies over the degree to which is it caused,or exacerbated, by human industrial and agricultural activity.

If Mr Anderson were to extend his reading beyond A Confederacy of Dunces to the internationally respected scientific journal Nature, he would have been able to read, as recently as a month ago (Volume 436), a fascinatingly apposite paper by atmospheric scientist Professor Kerry Emanuel, of the Massachussetts Institute of Technology, which demonstrates that there has been a marked increase in hurricane intensity since the 1970s which is forecast to continue. Professor Emanuel also shows how this analysis "suggests that future warming may lead to an upward trend in tropical cyclones destructive potential, and - taking into account an increasing coastal population - a substantial increase in hurricane-related losses in the 21st century".

I think such academic analyses are more likely to reflect reality than Mr Anderson's unconscionable bile against the poor.

DR DAVID LOWRY

CONSULTANT EDITOR CLIMATE CHANGE MANAGEMENT LONDON NW10

Sir: While Bruce Anderson is blaming the poor blacks of New Orleans for the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina, why doesn't he blame hospital patients for their MRSA infections? Blame nomads in Niger and Mali for the current famine? Blame goat herds in Afghanistan for the atrocities of the Taliban and subsequent US occupation? Blame the tribes people of Darfur for the genocide? I don't suspect Mr Anderson would blame the stockbrokers in the World Trade Center for the events of September 11, but, really, they were just as complicit.

ERIN CONDIT-BERGREN

OXFORD

Sir: How on earth does Bruce Anderson know that "None of the looters was a neoconservative"? Neocons have, after all, been happily looting America's environment, most non-military items in the federal budget, the Louisiana National Guard's manpower and Iraq's oil for some years now. Perhaps he simply assumes that they are after bigger fish than a mere trolley of groceries from Wal-Mart. In any case, isn't not looting supermarkets a rather narrow basis on which portentiously to recommend neoconservatism, even to Americans?

NICK STRANGE

COLOGNE, GERMANY

Sir: I spent much of the weekend speculating how Bruce Anderson would square the circle and loudly proclaim that George Bush was not to blame for his country's disastrous response to Hurricane Katrina. His column on 5 September was, as ever, wonderfully entertaining, but I was a little disappointed that he limited the guilty parties to just the founders of New Orleans, African-Americans, single mothers and the BBC. Surely there was room on the charge sheet to include gays, feminists, liberals, the European Commission and Kenneth Clarke?

NIGEL WOOTTON

HERNE BAY, KENT
selfmademug

Post by selfmademug »

How on earth does Bruce Anderson know that "None of the looters was a neoconservative"? Neocons have, after all, been happily looting America's environment, most non-military items in the federal budget, the Louisiana National Guard's manpower and Iraq's oil for some years now. Perhaps he simply assumes that they are after bigger fish than a mere trolley of groceries from Wal-Mart.
No shit they are.

Thanks for posting the follow-up, John.
User avatar
Mr. Average
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:22 pm
Location: Orange County, Californication

Post by Mr. Average »

Thank you to Doc and Spooky for providing a vehicle to donate in a way that a donor can feel confident that 100% of the donation will hit the desired target. There are a myriad of charitable organizations to chose from, but many sustain a significant overhead, gleaning a sometimes staggering percentage of the donation to support the administration of the charity, and leaving a pittance to the people that really can use it.

Kudo's to Doc and Spooky for demonstrating that kindness requires some effort, and they have put forth considerable effort not just in support of this forum, but in support of key board members who have been able to benefit from their kindness.

Whatsoever you do...
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)
Post Reply