RIP Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul II

This is for all non-EC or peripheral-EC topics. We all know how much we love talking about 'The Man' but sometimes we have other interests.
invisible Pole
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RIP Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul II

Postby invisible Pole » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:20 pm

We have all been orphaned.

RIP Holy Father
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Then you don't know what you've missed

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Postby spooky girlfriend » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:27 pm

RIP

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Postby so lacklustre » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:44 pm

Personally I hope the fucker burns in hell. Someone who can let people starve in over crowded countries, who let Aids and other sexually transmitted diseases spread like wildfire because he doesn't agree with rubber johnnies is a disgrace to the human race. His values and that of the religion are ill founded & pathetic.
signed with love and vicious kisses

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Postby invisible Pole » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:55 pm

So lack, this is deeply offensive.

The saddest thing of all is that a lot of you would probably mourn more a mass murderer like Che Guevera than a death of man who only wanted peace, love and understanding.

I'm not offending people who are passing away even if I don't understand them.
Therefore I don't want any derogatory remarks here.
If you don't respect John Paul II then please refrain from adding your comments to this thread.
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Postby Who Shot Sam? » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:06 pm

IP, with all due respect, I feel that so lack has a right to say whatever he wishes about the Pope. You may not agree with it, but IMHO this is a forum for public discourse.

I'm not a big fan of John Paul II either. I just read a headline that said, "The world mourns..." I find this insistence that I mourn someone with whom I so virulently disagree on so many matters kind of troubling. Where was this pope when sexual abuse among clergy was being exposed on an almost daily basis here in the States? Not to mention his stances on contraception, abortion. I could go on.
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Postby so lacklustre » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:38 pm

I find it offensive that people worship a religious leader whose actions and words have led to the death of thousands of people through Aids. I posted my honest opinions, if you can't deal with it go and post your papal worship on an RC dedicated site. I'm not catholic, I'm not religious why should I mourn or respect him and why should I not post my opinions on a Elvis Costello fan site?

My intentions were not to offend, but I retract nothing.
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Postby invisible Pole » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:44 pm

If you hate him so much, then please start another thread on how dangerous he is to contemporary world.

This will surely not affect a billion of people crying over his death.

I'm sure you wouldn't like other people to make jokes, or fun of, or make derogatory remarks about J.F.K. on November 23. 1963. Would you ?

Sadly, it seems that everybody can be mourned here with some respect unless they are John Paul II or Ronald Reagan.
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Postby King Hoarse » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:51 pm

I agree with previous speakers that monkeys should be allowed to speak their minds in this forum.

But I'm also happy that John Paul II's death wasn't too drawn out, and hope he rests in peace next to Jesus, Che, Adolf, my grandma and the other hasbeens.

And let's höpe that the next pöpe is möre öf a rubberman, to paraphrase inspector Closeau. (I guess chances of that are as great as him being called George Ringo I.)
What this world needs is more silly men.

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Postby alexv » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:22 pm

I am not religious, and myself made a wisecrack as to his slow death in another thread, but I think I get IP's point.

We are all free to say whatever we want in this forum (well, there are limits as WHAR found), but IP started this as a RIP thread, and his point is that those of us who do not treat the Pope's passing as a mournful event should not use his thread to trash the guy or debate his significance. Start another thread and go to town.

Speaking of WHAR, I recall that one of the transgressions that he was called to task by our moderator was for daring to inject a note of levity in an RIP thread for of all people.....Johnny Carson!! He was quickly told to show some respect. I think the term used was that he was "sabotaging" the thread. And what he said was nothing in comparison with what has been said here. And Johnny Carson was not the head of any religious order. No one rose to WHAR's defense.

I think IP is asking for similar consideration. This is not a freedom of speech issue. It's a human decency issue, and I would hope we approach his thread with some decency. Join in, or ignore it and start one were the Pope's policies, significance, good, harm, etc. can be discussed.

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Postby Mr. Average » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:33 pm

There is only one Master of Life and Death. Our Pope championed that philosophy, and held it as core to many of his teachings.

If you hold the opinion that life and eath across the globe is attributable to John Paul II, (only a man, although divinely endowed) then you may as well substitute any name that workas for you...Paul Rubens, Andrew Dice Clay, Mick Jagger. They are equally plausible recipients of your vitriolic drivel.

The suggestion that the Pope is at the core of global death via hunger, starvation, and HIV is much more about ignorant than offensiveness.

I pray for the forgiveness of those who believe that Life and Death is the decision of frail, faulty mankind.

To demonstrate vile hate for a man of worldwide peace is the essence of the confusion of the ultra-liberal mind. Meanwhile, I have wonderful images in mind of my father, Pope John Paul II, and Terry Schiavo engaged in a very lively discussion right about now.

And they are praying for us all.
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Postby Who Shot Sam? » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:33 pm

So if I start a thread and someone disagrees with it, the proper procedure is for that person to start a new thread where everyone who feels as he does can congregate? Right...

I don't think that WHAR's ban had much to do with that Carson thread. That was probably the least of his transgressions.
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Postby alexv » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:18 pm

Who Shot Sam, it's an RIP thread. It's not meant as a thread for general discussion. In the two years that I have been checking this site out on a regular basis I can't recall one RIP thread where this kind of venom was injected.

And in this case the thread was started by a Polish individual, for whom the Pope (a polish pope) has, I think it is safe to assume, a significance that goes beyond the purely religious. Why use if for attacks? And IP, from the style of his past posts, has been nothing but respectful in stating his opinions.

There are posters here who slug it out with no holds barred and I would assume that they are fair game. But I don't include IP in that category. I am not saying people should be prohibited from noting their strong negative feelings for the pope, but why do it in this thread? It's inflamatory and rude. Sometimes the mere right that we have to do something does not mean we should do it.

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Postby lapinsjolis » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:42 pm

Let us not be blighted by hateful ignorance. We have been graced by such a light-let's rejoice in that. All who understand have a joy and peace that can not be taken away and has only a new beginning in this temporal end.

Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine; et lux perpetua luceat eis. Requiescant in pace. Amen.
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Postby SoLikeCandy » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:03 pm

I'm black, and Jewish--the Pope was a champion for both groups. Sure, he didn't hold all of my views, but the point is that he dedicated his life to helping others. Anyone who does this--from a plain old person right on up to the Pope--deserves to have his or her life celebrated.

I can understand the vitriol spewed by some of the people in this thread. And I don't agree with them. And that's okay. But, this is a thread to show appreciation for a mostly good man--I have to agree with the idea of starting a thread to bash him, and leaving this one for those of us who cared for the guy.

Just my two cents.
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Postby Who Shot Sam? » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:26 pm

When someone dies, it's ony fair to assess what he/she has done, for good and bad. Any newspaper obituary worth its salt does no less. I don't feel as strongly as so lack does about the Pope, but I certainly think it's fair to criticize him for some of the positions he's taken and some of the issues he has chosen to champion. And I see no problem with doing it here, in this thread. I'll leave it at that. I don't need a lecture in propriety from anyone.
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Postby SweetPear » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:35 pm

Truthfully, I was shocked to read SLL comments, but I don't deny him the right to express them.

What I have a problem with is people who insist that they have the right to say whatever's on their mind, completely devoid of tact or regard for anyone else except themselves.
I certainly do believe in the right to have and express one's own opinion, but the problem is that these particular people are so busy screaming and yelling about their right to express their opinion to the point of extinguishing all other opinions that aren't in line with their own. THAT OFFENDS ME.

Lapinsjolis, SoLikeCandy, Mr. Average, Alexv, Invisible Pole......thank you for expressing this so much better than I.

It is a sad day. For obvious reasons, it's a very sad day.
Rest in peace, John Paul.
I'm not angry anymore....

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Postby so lacklustre » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:54 am

1. I don't give a toss about JFK and wouldn't have the foggiest idea when he died. There are few if any people I would mourn for who I do not know personally. I thought the public grieving for Princess Diana over here was pathetic and said so at the time, she was not a bad person like PJP and so it didn't offend me so much as puzzle me.

2. I find it offensive that you start a RIP thread for a figurehead who imo has done a lot of harm.

3. If I am offended by any thread or post I will say so and that it what I did. I may have been more vitriolic than I could have been and for that I apologise.
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Postby ice nine » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:08 am

I think there was a better way to express your dissatifaction with the Pope's policies than 'burn in hell'. Being the pontiff is as much political as religious.

I always laugh when my father sees the Pope on TV and he says, "Good yontif, pontiff".
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Postby Boy With A Problem » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:21 am

Mr. Average wrote


I have wonderful images in mind of my father, Pope John Paul II, and Terry Schiavo engaged in a very lively discussion right about now.



No doubt in the roped off VIP area.
Everyone just needs to fuckin’ relax. Smoke more weed, the world is ending.

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Postby Who Shot Sam? » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:03 am

Boy With A Problem wrote:Mr. Average wrote


I have wonderful images in mind of my father, Pope John Paul II, and Terry Schiavo engaged in a very lively discussion right about now.



No doubt in the roped off VIP area.


LOL. :wink:
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Postby DrSpooky » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:04 pm

Last night MrsS and I went to a fund raiser for the Catholic school which 3 of our kids attend. It is the largest fundraiser of the year for the school and certainly the social highlight of the school calendar. There were some who wondered if it was appropriate to have a such a lively, joyous evening on the day JP2 passed away. One of the priests quickly put an end to such thoughts when he started the evening by reminding us that JP2 was very concerned about youth. He would have wanted the evening to go forward and be successful.

No one is perfect and we will never all agree about the solutions to the world's may serious and complex problems. I have trouble believing that any single person is responsible for world hunger when there have always been and will likely always be hungry people. We might as well blame it on Bill Cosby for his character Fat Albert which obviously encourages gluttony. It is funny that people think that any single person has that much power over time and space. :)

The lesson to learn from JP2, Billy Graham, and 100s of other examples is that each individual can make a difference in their sphere of influence. Love your neighbor.

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Postby Mr. Average » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:01 pm

BWAP, once your in, your in. Caste systems, pecking orders, and hierarchies are left at the gates. Can't prove it, wouldn't want to spend a second trying. My Faith permits me to believe it, and I do.

I'm sure that it seems so silly to believe as such, but I do believe it, and if I am wrong, then what harm is there in that other then the shock that I will receive upon my passing. By then, it's too late anyway.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

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Postby Tim(e) » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:16 pm

I must admit that the way in which the impending death was reported in the press did come across a little like the "but I'm not dead yet" scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, but the thing that I don't understand (and this is true of all religions) is this... why are millions mourning his death? Isn't the whole idea of deity belief that when you pass you will go to a better place and receive your just reward? Shouldn't these millions be celebrating his death, as his time has come to move on to that better place?

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Postby DrSpooky » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:24 pm

I have to wonder the same thing. His death, although sad, was also expected. Everything I saw indicated he had really suffered physically over the past few years. He was 85 years old.

It is truly and deeply sad to me when a person is struck down unexpectedly and way too early such as when a drunk driver kills someone or a murder.
Mrs S' brother passed away suddenly with no symptoms or explanation leaving a young widow and 19 month old son. We are still trying to understand that.

We should celebrate what he did. If you don't like his actions, then write to the new pope and express your sentiments.

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Postby Mr. Average » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:29 pm

Yhe mourning is not evidence of shaken faith. It is part of the human condition...if you lose contact with someone that you felt a connection with, a distant but influential friend, you are saddened to not have the oppoertunity to experience that connection, that friendship again.

One of the big mysteries of this papacy was it's ability to communicate with youth. This papacy was the first to visit a synagogue, and an Islamic mosque. During a Mass he held somewhere in or near the middle east, the Mass was interupted by the Islamic call toprayer mid-way through. John Paul II paused, waited, and did not continue until the Islamic Call to prayer was complete. Respect for others, a pan-humanist who, for the life of me, would be incapable of being the target of some of the hateful messages that I have read here and in a very few other places.

This pope, an actor in training before Communist rule interrupted his training (divine providence), was charasmatic and intellectual. His thirst for knowledge was insatiable. When that kind of person leaves the earth, it is completely human and understandable to mourn. But the Faithful mourn as much for his passing as a friend as they do for the uncertainty that follows. The pope is a very influentual leader, and if the wrong guy takes the supreme position (it's happened before, hasn't it?) there is a very big fear that the Christian Church will be in turbulent times. So there is mourning associated with the transition, and the fear of uncertainty. Very much a part of the human condition. It's okay. Normal. Expected. Human.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)


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