FASCISM, MEDIA, and DRESSING LIKE A NAZI

[BlueChair]

No, they just have always asserted that everyone else deserves to burn in hell for all eternity or something like that...

Alright, next time someone wishes me a Merry Christmas I will take it as a "Burn in hell, jewboy!"

[selfmademug]

I was thinking that the symbols only have as much power as somebody gives them. If Nazi symbolism may be about blind hate based on ignorance, then, yes, why should it especially rankle?

Well, that's semiotic hairsplitting, in my opinion. No, I suppose the actual symbol should not wrankle, not the nature of its shape, its angles, whatever. It is the communication behind the symbol. The meaning of symbols is decided by the entire culture, or large chunks of it, and unless you think we're on the brink of divesting the swastika of its (much deserved) instant association with genocide, I don't think it's up to you to say 'it's so dumb it doesn't scare me' or something similar. That meaning of the swastika is not going to disappear unless it is replaced by another meaning entirely. In the meantime there are far more people like Blue, jews or not, who, if they see contemporary swastika as graffiti, etc., think, 'Oh, I see someone wishes we were back to mass ethnic slaughter and has decided to tell me that.'

Yes of course there would be other symbols to take its place if we were to divest that one of its meaning (and yes there are already loads out there, 88, etc.) but is that likely to happen? Yes, symbols only have as much power as people give them. And that one was given a lot of power with the killings of millions of people over a few years-- I'm sorry, but I don't think ignoring it is any match for that power.

[selfmademug]

Alright, next time someone wishes me a Merry Christmas I will take it as a "Burn in hell, jewboy!"

PS-- please don't, if you can help it!

[mood swung]

I am reminded of Taz's signature which I am no doubt mangling (because he has declined to post here lately, and we miss him very much!), but it was something about how Jesus would feel if people walked up to him wearing crosses around their necks, like Jackie O might have felt about gun charms on necklaces. or the part in Dodgeball where Gordon's wife gives him her special "love" symbol. symbols in the abstract are just symbols. but nobody lives in the abstract. at least not anybody I know. although my granny got pretty close.

[tokyo vogue]

THIS IS CLEARLY THE ISSUE OF OUR TIMES.


Also:

I never understood the point of non-German nationalists using the swastika. If you love your country so much, why do you want to turn it into effin' Germany? Get your own symbol.


Also pt 2:

I hate modern-day communists more than I hate modern-day Nazis or racists. It's not that I sympathize, exactly, but...
Every single time I've been forced into a confrontation, the instigator has been black. No amount of sensitivity training and political correctness will erase the fact that arrogant gangsta blacks are constantly, constantly fucking with me, and that no one from another race has fought with me for something that wasn't personal. And yeah, I can see how you'd get angry, and though I'd never go that far, I can see how you'd get sucked into some WP group.


*shrug*

[bambooneedle]

I was thinking that the symbols only have as much power as somebody gives them. If Nazi symbolism may be about blind hate based on ignorance, then, yes, why should it especially rankle?

Well, that's semiotic hairsplitting, in my opinion. No, I suppose the actual symbol should not rankle, not the nature of its shape, its angles, whatever. It is the communication behind the symbol.

No, I was never on about semiotics; I did mean along with ANY communication anyone might care to imagine and try to attribute to any symbols for whatever reasons.

The meaning of symbols is decided by the entire culture, or large chunks of it, and unless you think we're on the brink of divesting the swastika of its (much deserved) instant association with genocide, I don't think it's up to you to say 'it's so dumb it doesn't scare me' or something similar.

Mug, you surprise me. What is a culture made up of but of individuals? The meaning of symbols is obviously decided by individuals first and foremost. What the swastika should mean to me personally is for me to decide. Should I care about my timing in personally denying Nazi symbols power to effect ME (my absolute right, and btw I'd already made the point that I was speaking for myself)? I don't think so, only because I understand enough about the ignorant intentions behind the symbols and also about why people may be very scared by them. So it's an educated position.

Yes, if I were under attack and some people wanted to pointedly remind me of the potential for human hate with symbols, they could. But what would be behind their intentions, I would ask. Weakness, fear, stupidity, shallow conformity, trying to entertain themselves for lack of imagination... The same ignorance that contributes to potential human hate expressed in other situations. I don't deny that I might experience some fear, but that would just be because I'm human and not particularly because of what nazis or anyone else might know about me (which would be very little and very superficial) to target me. Why should any idiot that draws a swastika be given any special importance either?

I'm just sure that it's how individuals respond that matters, for oneself and beyond.

Yes of course there would be other symbols to take its place if we were to divest that one of its meaning (and yes there are already loads out there, 88, etc.) but is that likely to happen? Yes, symbols only have as much power as people give them. And that one was given a lot of power with the killings of millions of people over a few years-- I'm sorry, but I don't think ignoring it is any match for that power.

I never said that "we" were going to do anything like that... And, when did I suggest ignoring as a solution for anybody? I did suggest the opposite earlier with regards to the symbols-- education.

[selfmademug]

The meaning of symbols is obviously decided by individuals first and foremost. What the swastika should mean to me personally is for me to decide.

Boo, I simply disagree with this.

Nothing personal, it's just that I don't believe it works like that, at all. You can decide what the swastika means to you, I guess, but that's merely idiosyncrasy-- if no one's going to share that decision/understanding with you, where's the point in symbols at all? Whether or not you want them to, symbols carry meanings invested in them by shared cultural understanding, and since that is the case, I'm going to oppose those who use symbols of hatred.

I fear we're slipping into Ayn Rand territory here.... ecch! Or maybe you're a Rand-ite; if so then we definitely disagree on fundamental terms.

[bambooneedle]

I never wanted to wrangle over what might rankle
but then Mug's mind started to mangle
behind some half-baked pseudo-intellectual tangle
the rigour she could not grasp
though I unlikely to fight or say piss in the river
when being personally effectual and to my mind right
about symbols that leave masses aghast

But isn't it personal and somebody said educational
They took your sister her purse and all.
Not merely intellectual or political they'll remind when personal
But fashioned by the individual first and foremost
one is certain of his resolution to protect understanding cost
knowing many sane ponder the same while saving sores
denying the ignorant power at risk of being bores

Mug, I know I'm not the only one who appreciates what I'm thinking, about how to oppose those who use symbols of hatred...

To have the intellectual and personal resolution to not let the ignorant get to you (anybody) on a personal level especially is what may allow you to save your life or someone else's.

What wrong with Ayn Rand, anyway? ... Not that I've read much of it and I have never considered myself a Randist.

[selfmademug]

then Mug's mind started to mangle
behind some half-baked pseudo-intellectual tangle
the rigour she could not grasp

Gee, that's nice. Despite the limits of my feeble, pseudo-intellectual mind that can't grasp your rigorous thinking, I do know what you mean about personal resolve and not letting ignorant statements get to me. So I can ignore that without any trouble.

As for not letting the swastika get to me, well, there may be others that feel as you do, but the way the numbers shake out in this climate, I don't think your form of opposition denies the neo-nazis any power, sorry, I just don't. And I don't think you want to say I'm less ready to save lives than you are. None of us knows what he or she would really do in a given situation, but I know what I believe in.

I do disagree with you on this swastika point, Boo, and I said it was nothing personal. I think we can agree to disagree.

[Mr. Average]

I do disagree with you on this swastika point, Boo, and I said it was nothing personal. I think we can agree to disagree.

Double standard, Ms. Mug?

[Copenhagen Fan]

THIS IS CLEARLY THE ISSUE OF OUR TIMES.


Also:

I never understood the point of non-German nationalists using the swastika. If you love your country so much, why do you want to turn it into effin' Germany? Get your own symbol.


Also pt 2:

I hate modern-day communists more than I hate modern-day Nazis or racists. It's not that I sympathize, exactly, but...
Every single time I've been forced into a confrontation, the instigator has been black. No amount of sensitivity training and political correctness will erase the fact that arrogant gangsta blacks are constantly, constantly fucking with me, and that no one from another race has fought with me for something that wasn't personal. And yeah, I can see how you'd get angry, and though I'd never go that far, I can see how you'd get sucked into some WP group.


*shrug*

Stay out of North Philly then and you won't get bitch slapped. Seriously, I know what you mean...I got my ass kicked a couple of times when I lived in Philly. My haircut was not popular!

[bambooneedle]

I agree to disagree.

[mood swung]

[selfmademug]

Love it, Moodsy!

[Copenhagen Fan]

so one can show a Nazi thingy if it's in the right context??? Just wanna get the politically correct rules in my head

[selfmademug]

Yup, that's my double standard at work alright. Seriously, yes, I think a direct depiction of the sentiment 'the swastika is garbage' works for me. It's why I don't support banning the symbol. I support confrontation of those who use it to further a fascist cause or just to promote hate.

PS-- Cope, are you from Philly originally? Just curious.

[miss buenos aires]

I just have to chime and echo mug here vis-à-vis the impossibility of saying, "I can decide what this symbol means to me." That's not how symbols work!

It's like Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland (or was it Alice's Adventures Through the Looking-Glass?): "A word means exactly what I want it to mean."

[Copenhagen Fan]

PS-- Cope, are you from Philly originally? Just curious.

Nope...I'm from San Francisco, but I have lived in Philly, in a place called Penn Valley, right next to Dr. J's house

Do you know the bar Dirty Frank's??? My favorite place.

[bambooneedle]

Miss BA, so there's nothing to be said for outsmarting one's attackers then? For psychological strength over them or the refusal to be victimized at their whim? Do you just think that you are powerless to avoid the hurt the users of the symbols calculatedly mean to inflict whenever they want?

http://rustedpipe.vega.net/in_the_eye.htm ... right down the line.

[alexv]

Bamboo Needle, as I see it there is no need to resort to wearing Nazi symbols to outsmart them or to show that we refuse to be victimized by them. All that does is trivialize the gargantuan atrocities committed by a system which used the swatstika to represent it. I agree with your previous post that symbols and their meaning should be left to the individual, but any individual who would choose to use this symbol to show that he cannot be intimidated by its connotations (essentially telling the Nazis that hey, your swatstika is just a symbol, I don't buy it, and therefore I can use it for my purposes) or to just goof on it, is choosing the wrong path, one that causes much pain to the victims of the Nazis, still among us, and to their families. The harm I think outweighs the good. The way to outsmart Nazis is to show that what the swatstika bearers did was evil, that their symbol stands for one of the most barbaric acts of the 20th century, and that no civilized person should (although each idividual is free to do what he likes) afford it legitimacy by wearing it, even if the intent is good.

[bambooneedle]

Bamboo Needle, as I see it there is no need to resort to wearing Nazi symbols to outsmart them or to show that we refuse to be victimized by them.

Alexv, my comments are in no way to defend the wearing of the symbols! I think it would be utterly stupid and insensitive to do that or to wear them. You must have misunderstood me because this thread started off about Prince Harry being an idiot, but I agree with the rest of your post. However, I like what Mel Brooks did with them (To Be Or Not To Be) and used to on occassion watch Hogan's Heroes and Get Smart... all lampooning the Nazis.

I just question the notion that "well, it's a powerful cultural symbol and so I have no choice but to conform to how most people react or are taught to react to it, that there's nothing to be done but to lie down and suffer about it and accept that it has "power" over me". That is to just look at it culturally, not as an individual (unless you are one of those individuals who just conforms to prevailing cultural stances, which were the reason why a large part of the German populace were sympathetic to Hitler with his 'ethnic cleansing', trying to take over Europe, etc). Cultural meaning is not very individualized.

To be clear: to deny the symbols power to effect me is NOT to fail to take anything historically about them into account and not be informed of the facts or about any danger (or whatever), it's about how all that is able to be processed.

[alexv]

BambooNeedle, points taken. I agree with your last post.

I just want to make the point that I too am not offended by art that lampoons the Nazis, but distinguish that from wearing the symbols or helmets or whatever as a goof, or to show that they are no big deal.

[noiseradio]

Here in the south the issue is usually about the confederate flag. Some view it as a symbol of their heritage, fighting for states rigts. Others were opressed under that flag for a cebtury, first as the Confederacy sought to maintain the right to own people, and then as the KKK used the confederate flag as a its banner in the post-Civil War years. An individual may decide that, for them, the flag means pride in their southern heritage. But the symbol means something much different to the majority of people in the south. It is a symbol of hathred to most. And no matter what the individual who disagrees with that thinks, putting a confederate flag on your bumper means "proud to be a racist" to most people. You can't just decide one day that the swastika is going to once again mean "peace" as it did before Hitler and expect everyone to assume that's what you mean by wearing it. You may mean it for peace, but it means hate.

Words and symbols are like hooks that we hang ideas on. It's possible for you and I to have a different idea hung on the same hook. But there is a generally agreed-upon idea that hangs on any given hook within a society. It may change over time, but one individual deciding to hang an idea on a hook that usually holds a different idea doesn't negate the idea that usually hangs on that hook. Not even for the individual. If most all of us agree starting tomorrow that "banana" is a word that means an emotion you feel when very angry and "rage" is a yellow fruit, then that's dandy. I'll have a sliced rage and if you don't give it to me, I'll feel banana. If I'm the only one who makes the switch, I will look like a lunatic saying that last sentence.

[bambooneedle]

It needn't involve trying to replace a meaning that usually hangs on a hook hence negating it. BUT, it can (not saying 'must') involve taking that meaning that you witness being presented to you into account while deciding, with all information available, what to ultimately make of the event more particularly for yourself.

In other words: ok, someone flashes a symbol at you or at whoever. You know what it's meant to mean. Now, what do you think about what just happened?

[King Hoarse]

Either Harry was dumb or too lazy. I'm sure fewer people would have been offended if he wore a black wig and Adolf moustache to go with the swastika and did the Basil Fawlty Nazi walk. I mean, Sid Vicious could get away with sporting swastikas to offend people and I'd let the kid have his punk rebellion years like any other adolescent, but if he can't see that it will put him up to his neck in scheisse he's dumber than said Fawlty.
On the bright side, if more people realize that any firstborn idiot could inherit the crown maybe this little incident will put an end to all monarchies in the long run. "And we will have peace on Earth and global communion" hahaha