CALLING ALL SECRET AGENTS!

This is for all of your writings, songs, pictures or however else you feel like expressing yourself. Have at it!
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A rope leash
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CALLING ALL SECRET AGENTS!

Postby A rope leash » Sun May 07, 2006 11:36 am

>CONTENT DELETED DUE TO ITS SENSITIVE NATURE<
Last edited by A rope leash on Sun May 14, 2006 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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mood swung
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Postby mood swung » Mon May 08, 2006 11:41 am

Actually, Gilli's beau is Number 2.
Like me, the "g" is silent.

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A rope leash
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The Big Banger

Postby A rope leash » Mon May 08, 2006 9:01 pm

Something has to come from somewhere.

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A rope leash
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Pain for the brain

Postby A rope leash » Tue May 09, 2006 7:58 am

The conundrum of creation is that something doesn't come from nothing. If everything was begat from a single atom of hydrogen, the hydrogen atom would have had to come from "somewhere". This is the essential mind-blower that gets some folks thinking that it must have been "created", but what do some folks think created it? Why, something tremendously evolved...a god. But, that would have to be created, too, wouldn't it? I admit, it's a duesy, because its hard to see how something comes from nothing...but we don't need to create a creator to explain it, we can just continue to wonder.

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Postby spooky girlfriend » Wed May 10, 2006 8:22 am

Reminds me of a song

Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
You gotta have somethin' if you wanna be with me

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Postby Mr. Average » Thu May 11, 2006 1:00 am

Of course, that assumes, Rope, that the brain that was created for us (study neurophysiology for two years and tell me that it is a random mass of neurons that coincidently all connect in a perfectly orchestrated design that governs movement, reason, affect, cognition, sensation, etc. Just evolved magically.

Study Neurophysiology for two years, and study human embryology for one quarter, and tell me that this is all just a product of evolution, that there is no supreme creator, and I will be more amazed that your intelligence cannot grasp the wonder and mystery of all this, and that you can, even for a millisecond, think that God created us with all of the brain power we will ever need to higher reason way the Creator.

It takes a certain type of ignorance to think that there is but one strain of higher cognition animals int he entire universe. But if that were the case, why would our capacity to use our central nervous system be so stunted. It'spower is so much greater than what we use.

To think that this is the best of the best is to me, absurd. We have the capcity to be better. We have the design to function better. We have the structure to love more deeply. But we have not been commissioned to understand these depths, and to suggest that we have somehow "arrived" and we are as good as this creation gets, is beyond comprehension to me.

Thats you cue, oh God-less one. Let 'er rip, SoLack.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

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Re: Pain for the brain

Postby Mechanical Grace » Thu May 11, 2006 8:48 am

A rope leash wrote:The conundrum of creation is that something doesn't come from nothing. If everything was begat from a single atom of hydrogen, the hydrogen atom would have had to come from "somewhere". .


Not true. That's an illusion of our own paradigm. Just as mankind has no natural mental model for comprehending infinity, it has no model for comprehending that something can exist without being created or 'coming from somewhere'. It's just another type of infinity, infinity of being.

Belief in 'obvious impossibilities' is called faith, and frankly I always find it interesting that creationists ('scuse me, I mean 'proponents of intelligent design') get all huffy about people trampling on their faith when those of us who believe, solidly, in evolution and real science, have our own 'obvious impossibilities' (such as the varieties of infinity described above) to wrap our sense of existence around, and do so in a logical manner with the aim of furthering our understanding as a species. That is a different sort of faith, but faith nonetheless-- the assumption that empirical explanations exist, no matter how many or few we've figured out, or are ever capable of doing. I respect religious faith, but I don't want it in my government, and I sure as hell don't want it in my science. Because that ain't science. Science says, "there are unknowns". Religion (when it takes an activist stand on such things) says, "there are unknowns but we know where they come from-- God." Science is all about figuring out what other answers may exist, rather than jumping to a conclusion.

I haven't studied neurophysiology for two years, only a semester, but I know that anyone using the words "evolved magically" doesn't get it. As more and more evidence points to the existence of the mind in the brain as the nearly incomprehensibly complex gestalt of the neural connections themselves, it doesn't make me throw up my hands and say 'It's too amazing and complicated-- musta been God!'. Instead it makes me throw up my hands and think, 'It's amazing! And to think we're learning about this incredible tool using the tool itself! Think how much more there is to be learned!" That's a universe I'm glad to be living in.

And surely we're not at the end of our rope, brain-wise. The idea that we've arrived in some way-- coincidentally just while YOU are at the prime of your adult life, imagine that!!-- is arrogant. We've got a shitload of problems (most of our own creation, natch) to solve if we're to survive, and I sure hope our brains can keep a step ahead of them. The only thing to do is hope and try; that's all we've ever been able to do, and it's served us pretty well as a species.

Still, it's useful and humbling to remember that the dinosaurs are still waaaaaaay up on us in terms of how long they were around (even if you don't count birds).

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The truth shall set you free...eventually

Postby A rope leash » Thu May 11, 2006 9:15 am

Yep, I'm ignorant as Hell.

I have a "special" kind of ignorance. I cannot see God. Therefore, my handicap should be respected, and everyone should feel sorry for me because my ignorance keeps me from being the proper person I should be. I shouldn't have to pay taxes, either.

Yep, I agree with Mr. Average that it sure SEEMS like something created and controls us. Hell, how could I possibly dream the future if something wasn't trying to steer me? It couldn't possibly be that events in chaos arrive at the point where they CAN be predicted, could it? Perhaps it's a natural instict to be able to pick up on what's going to happen? No? It must be "God"?

Why is it that what created us must also control us? How do we know we are not secretly invaded by another life form from another world? That might explain why there is more than one religion, and differing gods. They are making fools of us!

Yep, man's brain has evolved into a marvelous piece of equipment, most of which we don't use. If I we're a neurosurgeon, I'd really really know that, not just know it. But, man's DNA is much the same as a monkey's, and so is his brain, and the basic design has been around for a long long time.

While it might be hard to swallow that mankind is the most evolved form of life in this part of the universe, I also find it hard to understand how someone can say that there is a ominpresent and omnipowerful entity creating and controlling everything. It goes to my ultimate question...how can something come from nothing? "God" comes from where?

If someone is seeing "God", or hearing, or feeling...the most likely source is from that highly evolved brain we have. Other than that, it might be a higher life form attempting to control the person. Maybe, but it's a long shot. An even longer shot is The Omnipresent One.

Yes, we live on a gorgeous, wonderful planet. Life is beautiful, but there is the awful specter of death that rides with it. We must begin to understand that we cannot understand it, and that a life after this one not really a valid supposition. Then, perhaps, we evolve into something better. My true suspicion is that we've already gone too far, and at the very least mankind will suffer from the inability to control it's population. Saying birth control is immoral, and "believing" that, does not help...and that's just one area where belief stunts our growth.

Yep, I'm stupid as Hell, and going to Hell, along with all them Allahs, I presume. But hey, imagine there's no heaven. Live for this life, not the next.

Yep, I've got a genetic handicap. It's a good thing that god believers run our society, because otherwise the situation might be terrible as opposed to the wonderful way things are now. Eventually, my solid yammering about their misdirection will be silenced by my death. They will not have proven the existence of God, and I will have shown how they cannot, because it's all in their pretty little heads. Fuck the war.

Hey man,

Il Sogno

O yeah. If you want to say Elvis is God, I might go for that...in this case "God" being the most highly developed brain of all living entities on planet Earth...

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A rope leash
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Dig the name...

Postby A rope leash » Thu May 11, 2006 9:17 am

Sorry to write over you Mech...I'll read you in a while and respond...gotta go to work, I think...

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A rope leash
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O, so misunderstood...

Postby A rope leash » Thu May 11, 2006 9:35 am

My tepid cheer at the end of the first post wasn't meant to imply that mankind has "arrived". I'm not sure where that's coming from. We are just the most highly evolved, whatever else we are.

As for where we are going, it's going to be on this planet. I happen to think that the idea that man will eventually conquer space and other worlds is bogus. We will die or survive right here.

Anyway, good chat agents...I'm off to the flats...

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A rope leash
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Wait, there's more...

Postby A rope leash » Thu May 11, 2006 9:37 am

I can grasp infinity better than I can grasp spontaneous creation.

But, I see what you mean...paradigm-wise, that is...

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From the poster formerly known as Mug

Postby Mechanical Grace » Thu May 11, 2006 1:09 pm

The part I'm talking about is where you say "Man‘s brain now, however, is more of a freak of evolution than it is a commonly used tool." It's still a powerful tool, THE most powerful, if that has any meaning, which probably it does not. Commonly used? Um, we couldn't not use our brains. I know you know that. So what do you mean? Do you mean that you don't *like* what a lot of people are doing with their brains these days? If so, take a number... but know that the mess we're in in no way diminishes the power or importance of our brains, nor their ability to help us evolve as a species. Making sure (ha! like it's possible) you'll have enough money to survive your old age is a helluva lot more complex and difficult than bringing down a mammoth.


man's brain has evolved into a marvelous piece of equipment, most of which we don't use. If I we're a neurosurgeon, I'd really really know that, not just know it. But, man's DNA is much the same as a monkey's, and so is his brain, and the basic design has been around for a long long time.


The idea that we only use some minor percent of our brain is one of those fun-facts-to-know-and-tell that's not really a fact at all. We still have no fucking clue how the brain really works, how chemicals, tissue and electricity make up thought, memory or will, for example. To experiment and find out that other parts of the brain compensate when one part goes bad or missing is not the same as saying we don't use most of our brains. And yes, our genetic makeup (which btw ain't been around very long in terms of life on planet earth) is very close to that of a chimp, but that's only insofar as it's very different from that of a piece of seaweed. I think it's pretty obvious we're different from chimps; by how much is a relative question that is meaningless except in a comparative context.

Annnnyway... nice to see you back here. There hasn't been nearly enough off-the-wall screed without you. :) I just can't stand to see facts twisted, as you'll recall from our "steel girders don't burn" convo a few years back..

PS, two books I read recently might be of interest on this topic, if for very different reasons:

Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin
Blink by Malcolm Gladwell

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I'm just full of shit as usual...

Postby A rope leash » Thu May 11, 2006 8:58 pm

It was sarcastic hyperbole meant to present my disdain for the average thinker. Of course the brain is a commonly used tool, but it isn't often trained to be used in a critical fashion. We don't really need all the brain we have, do we? So, commonly, the "extra capacity" doesn't get the workout it should.

Of course, I'm not an expert on brains. Good call on pointing that out. I'm also not an expert on religion, or evolution. I'm just a writer, using what I got. I don't mind when it's picked apart...at least not when it's an essay such as this one. It's really just meant to irritate, and I must admit, when I first posted it, I thought it had missed it's mark. The piece has its truth, and while some can say this part is true or that part is true, all we really have to go on is what we have garnered from our chosen sources of information. Of course, the ten-percent brain usage is a myth, but that so-called truism just about nails it when we talk about what the average person actually does with what they got.

I don't mind jabbering on about it, and talking to people who say they know more than I do. I'll be done here directly. Growling and biting is just me. Buildings don't fall down like that.

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Postby Mechanical Grace » Thu May 11, 2006 11:47 pm

They do, and they did, very sadly.

I'm no expert either. But that doesn't absolve me of having to get my facts straight to the best of my ability, unless I don't care if it comes off as nonsense. I don't like your chosen sources of information if they're giving you bad information, which I think they are-- we've been there already so I won't go into it again. I suppose you can write off whatever you want to hyperbole and a desire to annoy, that will always work. I just disagree and felt like saying so, so I'd think that would suit your purposes, no?

Specifically, I'm really interested in brains, and from what I read (in very conventional sources, it's true) it appears that science hasn't fully established how we do or don't use our brains. You can say you think most people are idiots if you want, but I suspect the sense of idiot you'd be using has nothing to do with the brain. The brain does a helluva lot more than allow us to think. Yes, I'm sure we can harness it do many more amazing things, as many individuals have done throughout history and continue to do.

Seriously, I think you personally would enjoy both those books I recommended. Both are fun reads and well-written. I know you like critters and you'd enjoy the Grandin book in particular.

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I really don't have time, but...

Postby A rope leash » Fri May 12, 2006 6:36 am

Name one other steel-frame building that fell into it's own footprint after a fire. Name ONE.

I think you trust your sources too much. I'm intersted in the brain, as well, and how it can be fooled and manipulated. You think I'm misinformed...I think you are. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose...

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Postby Mechanical Grace » Fri May 12, 2006 7:11 am

Name one other skyscraper that was brought down by an airliner exploding into it. Name ONE.

Point is, I'm not a civil architect or a structural engineer, but I use the common sense approach of believing the analyses of scientists, engineers, etc. You may think I'm too complacent about my sources, but again, the point is, I trust science. If there was something fishy about the way those buildings came down, there would be significant scientific interest on the part of all kinds of knowledgeable people, and there ain't. Yes, I absolutely believe there are important news stories that go untouched (initially, anyway) by the mainstream press from lack of balls. No, I don't believe that our own government bringing down the twin towers is one of them. (Among other reasons, because I don't think there's any way part of our government would even have had their shit together enough to pull such a thing off.) Scientists and engineers are all over the details of the fall of the twin towers, and there's still lots of learning to be done from the evidence. Still, there's no credible outcry saying the towers shouldn't have pancaked, or that steel doesn't burn, or that anything else fundamental seems off.

What happened to that last minute intervention you were so certain would prevent the completion of the last Presidential election? Dude you're a conspiracy monger; live with it. Bush is an arrogant and foolish man, and I suspect his party will pay for the ridiculousness and tragedy that is this war. But there's no cabal sitting around in robes (or Italian suits) pulling strings on world events. Thinking there is makes being angry so much simpler, but it's a fantasy. Things are complicated.

Well, yes, perspective, but all things are not equal here. Sorry, I gotta go with the sources who know most about these things, not internet nutjobs (by which I mean your sources, not you) spinning satisfying but 'fantasy-based' explanations.

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Good enough!

Postby A rope leash » Fri May 12, 2006 8:11 am

Of course I'm into conspiracies. My brain has evolved way beyond what is necessary to survive. A guy like me has no business even knowing about New York City, nor should I be asking impossible questions. However, there are those who have a need for all this brain. It's too bad they don't have it.

One of the fascinating things about conpiracies is how so many average people feel that they must do all they can to shoot them down. There are millions of us out here who distrust the official version of 9-11-01 events, and yet the mainstream won't even acknowledge that we do. As of now, I count much of the BYU physics department as on my side, as well as a former Bush administration official, a Reverend, Charlie Sheen and Ed Asner. So, I'm not alone in asking questions.

As for the websites I go to for information, they only link to exisiting news stories from (mostly) reputable news sources from around the world, and then comment on them. I surely don't believe every thing I read, but it seems important to some secret agents to make it appear that I do. My perspective reveals to me a corporate fascist state, of which the mainstream media plays a vital part. We know that governments and groups within governments act secretly to maintain and affect events, and we know that in the past, false flag attacks have not been unheard of. Why would anyone think it isn't happening now?

There's a continuing advance to discredit the interent as a source of news and information. Freedom isn't really all that attractive to some folks, even if they go on and on about how important it is. To me, the web has proven to have been correct many times, and way ahead of the mainstream. It is the voice of the people, not the circus barker. Okay, no big false flag attack before the election...that was my speculation, not something I read and took for fact...but they didn't need it, did they, what with the electronic voting and mainstream media submission...

As for my original post, I don't see it as much of a disinformer. Yeah, the sarcastic jab at human brain usage went over most heads, but I stand by my assertions. This is just an Elvis Costello fans site, and this is just Tin Pan Alley. If I can reach out and irritate somebody, then my job is done. If I'm just ignorant, paranoid, and crazy, then why respond? Are you afraid I might lead?

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Your agency is so secret even you don't know it...

Postby A rope leash » Fri May 12, 2006 9:39 am

The Empire State building was struck by a bomber back in the forties. It's still there.

The Windsor Building in Madrid burned last year, out of control for 21 hours. It burnt up, but it did not fall.

Amazingly, WTC7, which suffered no impact, just fire, also fell on 9-11-01, right smack dab into its own foot print. It looked just like a controlled demolition, and in my estimation probably was. These things take time to set up.

I don't think the fall of the WTC buildings can really be described as "pancaking". That would be a clumsy, slow topple, not a dead drop into a pile on the ground beneath.

One cannot expect the system to admit its own failing. We must control the system, which means we must sometimes fight it. We cannot allow the system to control us, we must only allow it to serve us.

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Re: Good enough!

Postby Mechanical Grace » Fri May 12, 2006 11:25 am

A rope leash wrote: If I'm just ignorant, paranoid, and crazy, then why respond?


Best point you've made so far. Enjoy that big, big brain of yours that others of us would die to have! Lead on!

PS, for your future reading and research, 'pancaking' is exactly the term for a building collapsing onto its own footprint: picture the floors falling straight down, accelerating as they go because of the increasing momentum and weight, and forming a stack, like pancakes. Whether or not the floors were intact enough to form a stack, that's the action that occurred.

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Postby Mr. Average » Sat May 13, 2006 9:05 pm

The attacks of 9/11 we predictable and foreseeable as imminent. In that regard, the seed of any conspiracy theory has fertile ground to sprout.

Under the Clinton Administration, the National Defense infrastructure (including intelligence, military) were cut to almost exactly 50% of the levels that they had been funded at since 1945, after Pearl Harbor and WWII. This is well known by economists as "Clintons Folly", and sadly, a centerpoint of the ignorance of those who champion Clintons "balanced budget" vs. the huge deficit of the Bush II administration. Since 1945, the national defense required approximately 6.7-7.0% of the Gross Domestic Product to fund. Clinton, and as insidious as a slow growing lethal carcinoma, de-funded military and intelligence, in 8 short years, to 3.4 % of the US GDP. Yes, he cut it in half. If you consider that even a single percentage point of the GDP translates to billions and billions of dollars (pinky finger in corner of mouth), a chimpanzee could have balanced the budget with the residual money that he had to play with. Hurray for the genius of Bill and Hillary. The political capital they gained remains incalculable, yet the toll that their maneuvering took on human life is quite easy to calculate. But , Hey!!!, he balanced the budget, and screwed a nation, now paying a heavy price. I didn't make up the term "Clintons Folly". It is widely understood and respected as the perfect set-up for the Bush first term. And it worked politically, and it continues to work, not because it is accurate, but out of ignorance.

So Bush takes office, is astonished at the total breakdown in National Intelligence, and begins the build up (to 1945 levels as a percentage of the GDP), which begins to stabilize national security but too late as 9/11 hits 9 months after inauguration. So he pumps more money into national defense, wrecking the beautiful but artificial "balancing" act of Bill.

I offer this just as a foundation for why it was so predictable that we would be attacked. We were, effectively, defenseless. We aren't any more. The ultra liberal on this board are free to slam anyone and everyone they wish with impunity thanks to the retention of the freedoms that are still intact, only because security is being restored. Oh! you don't like the way it's being restored? Patriot Act? Insurgency fighting in the Middle East? Selective and truthfully benign telephone taps?

How would you do it? Or is it better to relinquish the freedoms that allow you to say what you want to say, how you want to say it, whenever and wherever you like. Please, if you answer with another spiteful diatribe, at least answer the question of how you would do it better. If you really believe that we can effect peace with Islamic extremists by talking and diplomacy, then have the courage to say so.

Won't happen. Lot's of vitriole. No idea's. Lot's of hate and problems. No solutions. Lot's of easy speak about peace love and understanding. No plan.

C'mon Neil? What should we do? Make more music? Sooth the savage beast?

9/11 was filled with conspiracy. But we were attacked on our soil as a weakened nation. We deserved what we got for allowing our defenses to wane to such a point. And if you really want a conspiracy, look at Clintons multiple attempts (and conversations!) with now recognized Islamic extremists. And with his/her public plan to globalize and take on a major leadership role in a borderless society. And why Barabara Olsen, who had absolutely nailed Hillary in two publications that if you take the time to read you cannot even consider her a viable candidate for President (extremeelty well-documented and footnoted with authenticated records in the national archives, etc) was coincidentally on the plane (and a good friend of mine literally stood on the banks of the Potomac and watched an real airplane fly into the Pentagon...not a missle) that crashed into the Penagon. WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

We will learn so much more. It will be dirty, foul, sickening. But the butt of all the jokes will be exonerated by history once the the truth confronts you.

Hillary for President? Stay away from tall buildings and long tunnels, or quickly learn to fly and/or swim.
Last edited by Mr. Average on Mon May 15, 2006 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

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Postby Boy With A Problem » Sun May 14, 2006 2:49 am

I would send out for assistance but there's someone on the signal wire
And the corporation logo is flashing on and off in the sky
They're putting all your names in the forbidden book
I know what they're doing but I don't want to look

You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny
Wait until they've got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally

Everybody's singing with their hand on their heart
About deeds done in the darkest hours
That's just the sort of catchy little melody
To get you singing in the showers

Oh, I know that I'm ungrateful
I've got it lying on a plate
And I'm not buying my share of souvenirs
You can stand to attention
You can pray to your uncle
Only get that chicken out of here
Everyone gets armbands and 3-D glasses
Some are in the back room
And they're taking those night classes

You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny
Wait until they've got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally
Everyone just needs to fuckin’ relax. Smoke more weed, the world is ending.

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Postby Mr. Average » Mon May 15, 2006 12:41 am

That's what I thought.....
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)

Mechanical Grace
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Re: CALLING ALL SECRET AGENTS!

Postby Mechanical Grace » Mon May 15, 2006 5:05 am

A rope leash wrote:>CONTENT DELETED DUE TO ITS SENSITIVE NATURE<


I think you mean content self-censored as an act of petulant gamesmanship.


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