New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Pretty self-explanatory
seanpointblank
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby seanpointblank » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:22 am

It'd be a shame if these files were available to diehard fans guaranteed to buy the record before 95% of people just streamed these tracks off Spotify for fractions of pennies. :mrgreen: I'm fine with that stance from the Roots/EC peeps, but it's decidedly out of touch.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby jardine » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:03 am

I personally find it back "in" touch with something, not out. I'm looking forward to letting them orchestrate this, not me--part of the performance itself. Waiting and anticipating, hearing chance snippets that you can't quite remember, can be good for you.

But then again, at my age, I am a bit out of it myself--grew up on a different "it."

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby when i was cruel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Has this album even been leaked yet ? I know that there was a fairly poor job on keeping NR under covers from pirates but this one seems to be more closely guarded ? maybe ? no ?
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby docinwestchester » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:38 pm

when i was cruel wrote:Has this album even been leaked yet ? I know that there was a fairly poor job on keeping NR under covers from pirates but this one seems to be more closely guarded ? maybe ? no ?


http://hasitleaked.com/2013/elvis-coste ... -up-ghost/

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby VoiceInTheDark » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:56 pm

seanpointblank wrote:It'd be a shame if these files were available to diehard fans guaranteed to buy the record before 95% of people just streamed these tracks off Spotify for fractions of pennies. :mrgreen: I'm fine with that stance from the Roots/EC peeps, but it's decidedly out of touch.


Yeah I agree. I'll admit to being a pretty dedicated pirate but Wise Up Ghost is one of the few albums that I plan on buying, I'll purchase it the second it becomes available and I'm sure 90% of the other users here will do the same. I didn't upload those files with any malicious intent, I just think dealing with radio streams is a pain in the ass and wanted to save others the trouble (plus, as a new poster I felt kind of obligated to make a contribution to the community, however small). I'm not complaining, the EC/Roots people have every right to request the removal of their material but you're right, it does seem like a decidedly old fashioned stance.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby jardine » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:38 pm

I do agree: waiting is old fashioned and being a pirate is not, it is quite "modern." I"m just wondering if there are any possible more interesting aspects to this than fashion, old or otherwise. Much has been gained, I suppose, but something has been lost as well about my relationship to artists and their work--reminds me of what I still have dreams of, of record stores and coming upon something unexpectedly...and so on. Having the artist (and, of course, record label, etc.) determining something of how they will deliver something to me that is not a matter of my own doing. . .that used to be part of the fun, part of the, dare I say, mystery of the thing, part, I think, of its artfulness.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Otis Westinghouse » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:10 pm

Amazon rolled in at 01.50: 'Wise Up Ghost'. Japanese ed £31.99, no details. Regular ed, £14.99, the 12 songs we're awaiting. Pretty bloody expensive for Amazon - a good thing as it confirms I'll be doing it old style in the way that brings most joy: in person in Fopp on the day.
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Poor Deportee » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:52 pm

jardine wrote:I do agree: waiting is old fashioned and being a pirate is not, it is quite "modern." I"m just wondering if there are any possible more interesting aspects to this than fashion, old or otherwise. Much has been gained, I suppose, but something has been lost as well about my relationship to artists and their work--reminds me of what I still have dreams of, of record stores and coming upon something unexpectedly...and so on. Having the artist (and, of course, record label, etc.) determining something of how they will deliver something to me that is not a matter of my own doing. . .that used to be part of the fun, part of the, dare I say, mystery of the thing, part, I think, of its artfulness.


Nicely put. Personally, I'm not particularly enamoured of the culture of piracy. I generally adhere to the quaint idea that, as a rule, artists should be paid for their work (although I'm not above making a "mix" for someone who is unlikely to buy the work of the artist in question but wants to know more about them, for instance, so I claim no moral purity here). The related but distinct issue - that of artists losing control over their own work to ravenous fans who access bootlegs or acquire songs before official release - is trickier. As long as you've got artists who keep material in the can that is on a par with or better than what they actually release, you'll have a standing and entirely reasonable justification for bootlegging. As for waiting for official album "drops," I have no problem with that. I never snuck downstairs to clandestinely unwrap Christmas presents either.
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby VoiceInTheDark » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:16 am

jardine wrote:I do agree: waiting is old fashioned and being a pirate is not, it is quite "modern."


That's not what I said. I made it clear that I plan on paying for this album and supporting the new work of artists I really care about in general. I didn't 'pirate' those files (and neither did the_platypus for that matter) they were already available on the radio streams linked to throughout this thread, I was just trying to give people access to them in a more convenient format. If I somehow got my hands on a copy of the full album I wouldn't dream of leaking it. I was just trying to make the content that was already legally available easier to digest.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby pophead2k » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:09 am

I also like to wait and hear an album all at once. Other than listening several times to the single, I am avoiding the radio streams, although it is really difficult! Elvis is one of the only artists whose albums I still buy on CD (mostly to maintain my physical collection). For just about everyone else, I've gone digital. Sigh.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby verbal gymnastics » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:20 am

I agree. I've only listened to the single but I'm intrigued by the references to Elvis's own songs within the album. I'm also interested in how many of these are newly written/co-written songs given Elvis saying he was not writing since the death of his father.
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Jack of All Parades » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:59 am

Poor Deportee wrote:
jardine wrote:I do agree: waiting is old fashioned and being a pirate is not, it is quite "modern." I"m just wondering if there are any possible more interesting aspects to this than fashion, old or otherwise. Much has been gained, I suppose, but something has been lost as well about my relationship to artists and their work--reminds me of what I still have dreams of, of record stores and coming upon something unexpectedly...and so on. Having the artist (and, of course, record label, etc.) determining something of how they will deliver something to me that is not a matter of my own doing. . .that used to be part of the fun, part of the, dare I say, mystery of the thing, part, I think, of its artfulness.


Nicely put. Personally, I'm not particularly enamoured of the culture of piracy. I generally adhere to the quaint idea that, as a rule, artists should be paid for their work (although I'm not above making a "mix" for someone who is unlikely to buy the work of the artist in question but wants to know more about them, for instance, so I claim no moral purity here). The related but distinct issue - that of artists losing control over their own work to ravenous fans who access bootlegs or acquire songs before official release - is trickier. As long as you've got artists who keep material in the can that is on a par with or better than what they actually release, you'll have a standing and entirely reasonable justification for bootlegging. As for waiting for official album "drops," I have no problem with that. I never snuck downstairs to clandestinely unwrap Christmas presents either.

My take has always been more in line with this from the Ethicist of a few years back:

" I bought an e-reader for travel and was eager to begin “Under the Dome,” the new Stephen King novel. Unfortunately, the electronic version was not yet available. The publisher apparently withheld it to encourage people to buy the more expensive hardcover. So I did, all 1,074 pages, more than three and a half pounds. Then I found a pirated version online, downloaded it to my e-reader and took it on my trip. I generally disapprove of illegal downloads, but wasn’t this O.K.? C.D., BRIGHTWATERS, N.Y.
Illustration by Matthew Woodson


More The Ethicist Columns

An illegal download is — to use an ugly word — illegal. But in this case, it is not unethical. Author and publisher are entitled to be paid for their work, and by purchasing the hardcover, you did so. Your subsequent downloading is akin to buying a CD, then copying it to your iPod.

Buying a book or a piece of music should be regarded as a license to enjoy it on any platform. Sadly, the anachronistic conventions of bookselling and copyright law lag the technology. Thus you’ve violated the publishing company’s legal right to control the distribution of its intellectual property, but you’ve done no harm or so little as to meet my threshold of acceptability.

Unsurprisingly, many in the book business take a harder line. My friend Jamie Raab, the publisher of Grand Central Publishing and an executive vice president of the Hachette Book Group, says: “Anyone who downloads a pirated e-book has, in effect, stolen the intellectual property of an author and publisher. To condone this is to condone theft.”

Yet it is a curious sort of theft that involves actually paying for a book. Publishers do delay the release of e-books to encourage hardcover sales — a process called “windowing” — so it is difficult to see you as piratical for actually buying the book ($35 list price, $20 from Amazon) rather than waiting for the $9.99 Kindle edition.

Your action is not pristine. Downloading a bootleg copy could be said to encourage piracy, although only in the abstract: no potential pirate will actually realize you’ve done it. It’s true that you might have thwarted the publisher’s intent — perhaps he or she has a violent antipathy to trees, maybe a wish to slaughter acres of them and grind them into Stephen King novels. Or to clog the highways with trucks crammed with Stephen King novels. Or perhaps King himself wishes to improve America’s physique by having readers lug massive volumes.

So be it. Your paying for the hardcover put you in the clear as a matter of ethics, forestry and fitness training."

I look forward to the surprise of the new and am decidedly old fashioned in that I think all artists should be paid for their intellectual property, not just a chosen few. I have a problem with this statement by Voice in the Dark- "I'll admit to being a pretty dedicated pirate but Wise Up Ghost is one of the few albums that I plan on buying." That sounds like theft no matter how you parse the term. This very thing is a running discussion I have with my nephew who thinks nothing of regularly 'pirating' movies, tv shows, books, and music. It is I have sadly come to realize a generational matter. My response, however, does not seem in the least, "like a decidedly old fashioned stance" to me.
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby FAVEHOUR » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:22 am

VoiceInTheDark wrote:
jardine wrote:I do agree: waiting is old fashioned and being a pirate is not, it is quite "modern."


That's not what I said. I made it clear that I plan on paying for this album and supporting the new work of artists I really care about in general. I didn't 'pirate' those files (and neither did the_platypus for that matter) they were already available on the radio streams linked to throughout this thread, I was just trying to give people access to them in a more convenient format. If I somehow got my hands on a copy of the full album I wouldn't dream of leaking it. I was just trying to make the content that was already legally available easier to digest.


I completely agree with you. People need to lighten up. You and the others putting up links are not pirating anything. These are songs that have been sent to the radio stations and they have then been aired. You're not taking an advance copy someone leaked you and putting up tracks. What is the difference between clicking on the link and you provided and clicking on the BBC link? It's a little easier for me, that's all. I appreciated the links. I listened to the songs once or twice, but didn't want to get too familiar with the material before the whole record comes out. And then I'll buy it, in every damn format they offer.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Poor Deportee » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:34 pm

Yes, putting up links seems OK. (Although a purist could then fall back on that argument that IF the original link is itself pirated, then steering people to it is unethical, etc.). I was indeed responding to the assumptions given in Voice's self-definition as a "pirate," not to the posting of links.

Loved Jack's thoughtful post. And yeah, that's another instance where ridiculously restrictive conceptions of proprietorship are best ignored. A further case is the obvious matter of gouging. When companies charge (say) $150 or whatever it was for an EC live set, they are practically begging to be pirated. And it is hard to argue that a company (or artist) that is effectively ripping-off consumers does not in turn deserve to be ripped off. (Of course, this claim relies on a tacit understanding of what it's "reasonable" to charge the consumer, itself a debatable matter. But still, there are obviously egregious outliers and I personally have no real issue with pirating in such cases).

Jack, with all these nuances aside, the contemporary culture of pirating is simply unacceptable in my book. This, despite the fact that nearly everyone I know gets their videos and music and even TV illegally. The hypocrisy of the chronic pirate is illustrated once we ask ourselves whether THEY would be willing to do their job without payment. I find an amusing (if painful) correlation between the "pirate" culture - many of whose members seem to see themselves as somehow egalitarian, defenders of freedom, sticking it to the man, whatever - and right-wing assaults on workers and employees. The link between the two is a commitment to brutal exploitation of the work of others, and this is a disease all too widespread in a culture that has systematically rolled back hard-won workers' rights and benefits since about 1980. People deserve to be fairly and decently paid for their work. You do. I do. David Bowie does. Elvis Costello does. Period.
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Jack of All Parades » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:48 pm

Poor Deportee wrote:Yes, putting up links seems OK. (Although a purist could then fall back on that argument that IF the original link is itself pirated, then steering people to it is unethical, etc.). I was indeed responding to the assumptions given in Voice's self-definition as a "pirate," not to the posting of links.

Loved Jack's thoughtful post. And yeah, that's another instance where ridiculously restrictive conceptions of proprietorship are best ignored. A further case is the obvious matter of gouging. When companies charge (say) $150 or whatever it was for an EC live set, they are practically begging to be pirated. And it is hard to argue that a company (or artist) that is effectively ripping-off consumers does not in turn deserve to be ripped off. (Of course, this claim relies on a tacit understanding of what it's "reasonable" to charge the consumer, itself a debatable matter. But still, there are obviously egregious outliers and I personally have no real issue with pirating in such cases).

Jack, with all these nuances aside, the contemporary culture of pirating is simply unacceptable in my book. This, despite the fact that nearly everyone I know gets their videos and music and even TV illegally. The hypocrisy of the chronic pirate is illustrated once we ask ourselves whether THEY would be willing to do their job without payment. I find an amusing (if painful) correlation between the "pirate" culture - many of whose members seem to see themselves as somehow egalitarian, defenders of freedom, sticking it to the man, whatever - and right-wing assaults on workers and employees. The link between the two is a commitment to brutal exploitation of the work of others, and this is a disease all too widespread in a culture that has systematically rolled back hard-won workers' rights and benefits since about 1980. People deserve to be fairly and decently paid for their work. You do. I do. David Bowie does. Elvis Costello does. Period.


Exactly- I like to call it the shoe on the other foot argument. My nephew, and all other 'pirates' should take some heartfelt instruction from Charles Taylor on this matter. Oh god what has Ann Rand wrought! :roll:
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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby jardine » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:58 pm

Sorry, folks, I didn't mean to start an argument about such things. I downloaded them too, and I'm glad to have done so. Hell, I bought The Great White Wonder when it first came out (yes, I'm THAT old!).

All I was wondering about is the shift that has occurred. I simply found that using the terms "out of it" or "old fashioned" to describe E.C. and Co.'s actions...well, this terms are true, but they bury something really interesting, a profound shift, I think, in the nature of artistry and audience. It isn't just a shift in fashion, nor is harkening back to it simply being "out of it." My relationship to artists and their work has changed--in some ways, for the better, no doubt.

But in ways I'm having trouble articulating, something has been lost as well that I think might be worth thinking through carefully. This might be nostalgia on my part, but I think it's not just nostalgia. All I really meant to do was to try to strike up a conversation about this shift. I only used the word "pirate" 'cause someone else used it. As a writer, I do have qualms about an artist's "ownership" of what they produce, but I didn't mean to shake that wasp's nest. Honest! The ethics of these matters is one thing. The shift in our relationship to an artist--how we listen, how we wait, what role we have and the artist has in "showing" their work, and so on.... Modern fashion has dissipated something about this...or something????

My sincere apologies to all concerned for causing too much heat and not enough light.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Dr. Luther » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:04 pm

jardine wrote: Hell, I bought The Great White Wonder when it first came out (yes, I'm THAT old!).



:lol:

"Basement Tapes", correct?

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby VoiceInTheDark » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:25 pm

jardine wrote:My sincere apologies to all concerned for causing too much heat and not enough light.


No problem Jardine, I'm sorry too, I off-handedly mentioned the fact that I’ll be buying the album despite pirating other content as a way of emphasizing my love of EC and my good intentions when I originally uploaded those files. I didn’t mean to derail the thread with a big piracy debate either. It’s a contentious issue and I really regret mentioning it now. You’re right about that cultural shift, it’s definitely interesting to think about. Even though the notion of a world without the internet is downright nightmarish to me, I can certainly understand why someone would romanticize traditional methods of media distribution and consumption. Can we all just agree to disagree about the whole piracy thing and go back to talking about how great Elvis Costello is?

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby jardine » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:58 pm

I"m wondering if there will be some sort of 78s thing like with National Ransom? Probably 12" "Extended Play" versions of songs for the clubs??

OK, now i REALLY sound old! But for sure a week on Jimmy Fallon!? Too bad Fallon isn't taking over the Tonight Show till February. Think of the premiere week that could have been. I would expect, too, a great DVD to come out of this as well w. The Roots.

Basement tapes, you say??? Yep, sort of, white label, white cover, some basement stuff, some live, terrrrrrrrrrible sound, one copy in the McMaster Bookstore record shelf. Arrive right around the time--maybe two weeks before?--New Morning, and after Self-Portrait. Fall 1970, a mere 43 years ago!

d.j.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby johnfoyle » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:23 pm

A curious feature of the pre-release information for National Ransom in 2010 was the publication by Elvis' site of it's lyrics months before the release. This doesn't seem to be happening with Wise Up Ghost.

I've just spent a few hours transcribing what I can make out of the lyrics of the new songs, noting old songs quoted etc. The Pills And Soap lyric used is what I call the Brodsky Quartet version. The original version in 1983 goes -


'Some folk have all the luck/And all we get are pictures of lord and lady muck/They come from lovely people with a hard line in hypocrisy/There are ashtrays of emotion/For the fag ends of the aristocracy' .


The version Elvis did with the Brodsky's goes -

' Some folks have all the might/And majesty will run on Bombay Gin and German spite/They come from lovely people with a hard line in hypocrisy/There are tears of mediocrity/For the fag ends of the aristocrisy'.


That was how he did it with them for a BBC radio session in 2002. I'm going to check the version from 1995 that is on the Rhino reissue of TJL and see if it features there. If so, would that be the earliest appearance of this 'Bombay Gin' etc. lyric? Elvis did lots of solo versions of it right up to 1989 ( see listing below) - does anyone recall if any of them featured this alteration?


http://www.elviscostello.info/wiki/inde ... s_And_Soap

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby Jeremy Dylan » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:28 pm

Jack of All Parades wrote:My take has always been more in line with this from the Ethicist of a few years back:
.......... does not seem in the least, "like a decidedly old fashioned stance" to me.


Great post. This is basically where I fall on this issue as well. For me, it's akin to buying at ticket to a show, leaving it at home by accident, then sneaking into the venue. Technically illegal, but there's no ethical violation here. You've paid the relevant parties and no one is being cheated.

I have no disc drive in my laptop, so I will occasionally download movies or TV shows I have already purchased on BluRay so I can watch them while on the go. I lose no sleep over this.

However, this is pretty much the only type of circumstance where piracy seems condonable to me.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby And No Coffee Table » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:28 pm

johnfoyle wrote:If so, would that be the earliest appearance of this 'Bombay Gin' etc. lyric?


I think 2001-06-26 London was the first appearance of the "Bombay Gin" verse. I have long suspected he wrote a new verse to avoid singing the line about "Lord and Lady Muck" — which I believe to be a reference to Prince Charles and Princess Diana — after Diana's death.

(He did, however, sing the original lyrics at least once after Diana's death: 1999-12-10 London.)

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby seanpointblank » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:52 pm

I think thinking you can control a media release in this day and age is out of touch to some extent (even more so when you're distributing copies out to radio hosts to play at will). Not that it's somehow wrong or defies the best way to experience music. I'm a person who still listens to albums...as albums, I have no qualms with that. I'm just saying, if they're handing out copies for radio and podcast plays of whichever tracks said hosts deem worthy, things that are available to be listened to/downloaded/streamed just with the song in question jammed in the middle of a bigger file, I think we've already passed a certain point. Like others, not trying to have an argument, just seems a bit silly and arbitrary at this point. Would it be okay if we could access these songs electronically with only 20 minutes of other stuff on either side? 10? 5? That's what I find all a bit silly. I don't even think anybody here is defending piracy, and I know there are a lot of false equivalencies made in defense of piracy, but I see snipping out radio/podcast plays of tracks and sharing them in a place this really isn't all that different than recording the song off of the radio on a cassette and sharing it with friends. It's easy enough for any of us to extract these tracks from the source podcasts/radio broadcasts on our own, so if it were really about total control of a release, it'd probably have been "Wise" to not allow any of these other tracks to be played outside of the approved single.

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby johnfoyle » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:57 am

Thanks ANCT , re Pills etc. The 1995 version on the Rhino reissue does, indeed, feature the 1983 lyric. Now to check, out of curiosity, if the versions this year in Manchester and Canterbury feature the 'Bombay reference.

We know, of course, that the version for this album was probably recorded in Vancouver last August , as this Crew Studio ( 'Hookery Crookery' in the press info) photo shows -

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... d1&theater

Image

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Re: New album for 2013: "Wise Up Ghost" (with The Roots!)

Postby bioplaid » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:38 pm

Piracy is a dumb word for taking an artist's work without permission.

A much better term is Freeloading.

http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/freeloading/


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