what a relief!!!

[Neil.]

Yes, I am, WIWC. And despite Verbal's near-the-knuckle clowning, I know he isn't homophobic.

But to get it back to the original point - hurray for Davey!

[Boy With A Problem]

I thought the Davey post was kind of ineresting - I'm a "friend" on FB and I "liked" his post.

Interesting in a lot of regards -

1. It was kind of interesting to find out he is gay. (I don't know why this is - it just is interesting to me to find out that someone is gay.) When I saw the post from Davey my intitial reaction was, "cool"

2. Someone, clearly missing the point of the post, made a comment along the lines of, "chicks dig bass players"......his partner does have a gender neutral name....but still.

3. If he had declared a heterosexaul relationship on FB - would there have even have been a post here? Would I have been so quick with my "like" to his post.? Maybe I liked it so quickly because it is a gay realtionship? If it had been a woman, I probably would have though to myself -"dude, you're doomed! - don't be making those declarations on Facebook!"

4. The "choice" discussion is interesting. I'm assuming that everyone here would agree that there isn't any choice involved in regards to whom a person is attracted. When someone is attracted to people of the same sex however, there is a lot of choice in how they deal with it. I'm always glad to see people come out - the more that happens, the easier it is for the next guy or gal.

5. It's also interesting to see the interaction here as I had always assumed that VG was gay. To find out he isn't and is in fact a bit of a homophobe is shocking!

[mood swung]

Guilty of #2 myself, in that I saw the status, and assumed it was a woman. Not that I care either way! Everybody deserves happiness.

Also guilty of #3. In general, always second-guessing myself. After a soccer game many years ago, I ran into another parent who hadn't attended the game and didn't know the shocking fact that the other coach had been thrown out by the approximately 14 year old referee. I did not know the other coach to say what his name was and I spent 5 minutes nearly breaking my tongue NOT saying 'he's the BLACK coach.' In fact, he was the ONLY black soccer coach in the county and had I said that, this other parent would have known immediately who I was talking about. But because I am from the south, and in the south, I could not say that word. It would make me racist. Or does the fact that I am so conscious of its usage and connotations make me racist?

I try to do the right thing.

I generally fail!


Old white woman, btw. Not that that matters.

[Natasha]

3. If he had declared a heterosexaul relationship on FB - would there have even have been a post here?

I find this discussion very interesting because, it's funny for me how it's still a big deal when people come out of the closet. I'm so used to it: most of my friends are gay, most of the people with whom I interact are gay and many many people in my university are gay (sayin' it like this it looks like Rio is the gay paradise LOL. Well, maybe it is). People should relax about it.

On the other hand it's, in fact, a relief. Even though nowadays is way less difficult, the process of (1) realizing it (2) admitting to yourself (3) accepting it (4) tell everybody is both complicated and exhausting. Adds to this the fact that is not easy to find a special someone, doesn't matter if you are gay or straight.

So, yeah, very happy for him.

[Natasha]

I did not know the other coach to say what his name was and I spent 5 minutes nearly breaking my tongue NOT saying 'he's the BLACK coach.'

I always do the opposite. When I'm refering to someone who's black and I don't know his/her name I say "the black guy/girl". I have no problem with that and I do that precisely because I think nobody should have a problem with that either. Some people look at me strangely when I do this but they have to get over it.

Of course, situation here in Brazil is way different. We're a very admixed country (although there's racism and prejudice like everywhere). You wouldn't be arrested just because you just "called" someone "black" (depending on the context, of course). The real problem here is the veiled prejudice, the fact that black people rarely get the best jobs, for example, but it's not because they are black, it's because they are poor, because of our slavery past. But now I digress. :p

[verbal gymnastics]

5. It's also interesting to see the interaction here as I had always assumed that VG was gay.

For the record I'm not gay.

But I think my boyfriend is

(of course it helps to know that I am male. If not the joke backfires somewhat!)

By the way, Neil. Is a good friend of mine, hence the "near the knuckle" remarks as he knows I'm joking.

[sulky lad]

Neil, Welsh, Gay and probably drunk by this time on a Friday night - looks like a win-win-win situation LOL
By the way I hope Davey is happy whatever the cause of his relief and that any traumas in his past are well and truly behind him ( no pun intended !!)

[History History]

.

[the_platypus]

What else should I say? Everyone is gay.

[Neil.]

By the way I hope Davey is happy whatever the cause of his relief and that any traumas in his past are well and truly behind him ( no pun intended !!)

Sulky, I know it's just banter, but just in case there are any preconceptions that people can't let go of:

Being gay isn't the result of traumas in the past, it's just how some people are.

And it isn't about anal sex - it's about being attracted to people of the same sex, end of story. The mechanics are irrelevant: not all gay people have anal sex, and lots of straight people have anal sex, women and men (some of my straight friends are very honest when they've had a few drinks!).

Honestly, my darling hetero friends, get over the whole gay thing! This started out as a nice thread about Davey, but with all the sniggering about sex, it's turned into an episode of Beavis and Butthead, starring Verbal and Sulky!!!

[verbal gymnastics]

Neil. - you know I don't mean any offence. I've made (or tried to make) a joke in response to comments in this thread as I would in any other thread. It's just that this thread has more potential sensitivities.

I've also stated that you're a good friend of mine.

You are right to some degree though - the thread is about Davey, but, like every other thread, has gone off message because we're all having some banter. As well as the light hearted and near-the-knuckle comments, there are some interesting views...

[Dr. Luther]

Can't we all just get along?

[sulky lad]

Sorry to have to explain myself (and hopefully disillusion any folks who might think VG and I are closet homophobics ) I was hoping Neil would get the jist of what I was getting at about being Welsh !> The trauma I referred to was what Davey mentioned in the post as "being a relief" and I imagined it was more a trauma dealing with his ex -wife/ partner and the family complications that would have arisen from this rather than some Victorian view that being gay was a "Sin " or caused by some trauma in his past. I think the danger here is that in treating the subject in any form of joke runs the risk of misinterpretation. Incidentally I had no idea Neil was gay and this hasn't in any way affected my affection for him and his posts especially the late at night ones and I'm sure we'll have a pint and a laugh when we meet for the RAH shows in May. Apologies if what I've said have caused any offence, honest !

[the_platypus]

YOU CAN READ ME THE RIOT ACT
YOU CAN MAKE ME A MATTER OF FACT OR A VILLAIN IN A MILLION
SLIP OF THE TONGUE IS GONNA KEEP ME CIVILIAN

[Neil.]

Verbs, Sulks, I know neither of you had any intention to offend, and I know neither of you are homophobic. Verbal, I know your remark about persecuting gays was intended as a deliberately outrageous joke, nothing more, as my response indicated.

But as the thread went on an on I just got tired of it - especially as it started out as a happy thread about Davey.

The reason I got tired? After growing up gay for 43 years, you do notice that a lot of non-homophobic straight guys of my generation just can't seem to get over the whole gay thing, perhaps through embarrassment or a vague worry that they might be the focus of attraction. They deal with it using sniggering jokes in a way that women don't, and I've lost count of the times I have had to sit smiling through the zillionth joke about anal sex, as though straight blokes really do think that's what defines being gay, when in fact it doesn't.

So apologies, Sulky, when you made your good-natured saucy joke, there were years of similar good-natured jokes piled wearily on top of yours, and you bore the brunt of my weariness! I felt the need to explain that being gay is about who you fancy, not what you do with your body. (If nobody speaks up about these things, the misunderstanding perpetuates, and the schoolboy sniggering continues, perhaps making people wary about coming out of the closet in case they think they'll be seen as a joke). It's not homophobia, but it's a bit tiring after many years - it just seems a bit last century. God, I don't know though - I enjoy a saucy joke, too - I'm British for God's sake! - agh, I guess it's the mood I'm in at the mo.

That's interesting about Davey - I didn't know he had a wife, so it's even more of a relief that he finally felt able to come out of the closet so that she too could move on with her life.

Anyway, inspired by Platypus's rousing rendition of Riot Act, maybe we should all join in with the following (I've tweaked the lyrics with that in mind):

WE'RE ALL JUST SOULS WHOSE INTENTIONS ARE GOOD!
OH LORD, PLEASE DON'T LET US BE MISUNDERSTOOD!

To end on a serious note, here are some recent news stories:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-de ... e-16656679

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-16323274

[bronxapostle]

Agreed, Bronxapostle, it's lovely news, and that's what came across in your message.

I was just being pedantic and clarifying the issue about choice, that's all - lots of people still think it's a 'choice' that people make.

gee Neil...so glad to have found this post in this thread from page one. i was getting worry if i had offended. i NEVER thought this post would have such "legs" but it surprisingly has nearly 1000 views. i feel great empathy if ANYONE was offended throughout, but clearly the VG/SULKY crew were just joshing and mean no harm. I AM sorry if cruel jokes heap on top of one another over the years; PEOPLE CAN BE PRETTY HEARTLESS! but, rest assured, we are ALL friends here. and despite certain schoolboy pranks; i somehow feel i can vouch for both VG and SULKY as meaning NO ILL WILL! just two good old class clowns in the end! (okay guys, no jokes about "in the end!") ba says "LOVE EVERYONE!!!"

[Neil.]

Bronx, soz, but....

I AM sorry if cruel jokes heap on top of one another over the years

...I wasn't talking about cruel jokes: Verbal and Sulky weren't being cruel. I was talking about good-natured sexual jokes that build up over the years, and get a bit tiring if you're gay - I've heard it all a zillion times. It's probably difficult to understand if you haven't experienced it.

Anyway, Elvis rocks, Davey's ace, and we're all here, experiencing our one and only life! How amazing is that?

Snogs,

Neil
-x-

[sulky lad]

Dear BA and Neil,
My dear friends, thanks for understanding.
Neil I know how you feel about the years of jokes - coming from the far West country, I wish I'd had a fiver for every sheep-shagging joke I've endured.
Happy thoughts to Davey and hope that
"In all the world there's only one true love, And finding it is hard enough
I bless whatever's in the sky above for bringing you to me"

[bronxapostle]

group hug!!!

[when i was cruel]

*Hugs Ba and others*

[verbal gymnastics]

Neil. - as a 48 year old male I am fully aware that a lot of people of mine and an older generation still have very old fashioned views about gay people. I know one person who - bravely in my view - came out amongst a group of people he drinks with at my local pub and has been subject to those tired old jokes you talk about ever since. And what's more is that every one of them have ostracised him.

The younger generation don't have the same prejudices as being gay is not frowned upon. My friend's 21 year old gay son has made the same comments about people not understanding about the physical side of gay relationships. In a similar manner there are still people who find it difficult to accept mixed race relationships but again, younger people are used to it being a way of life.

Attitudes will change in time.

Getting back to the thread, I don't know anything about the Imposters (save for Elvis' onstage introductions) so I had no idea Davey was married. I guess that's what the "What a relief" comment is all about. It must have been extremely difficult leading a double life (if that's what Davey was doing) and I'm pleased he's finally had the courage to accept he's gay. And it must also have been traumatic for his wife. I wish her every happiness as well.

[Man out of Time]

VG wrote:

The younger generation don't have the same prejudices as being gay is not frowned upon.

I am with Neil on this one, VG. I was asked to speak at the funeral of a former colleague last month. It was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. You can read about him here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gl ... e-16038828

It is a tragic story, and shows, I fear, that the young can be prejudiced too. The more positive gay role models (like our favourite bass player), young people see the better.

MOOT

[when i was cruel]

Being in the demographic you guys are talking about, we don't have anything against gays. Most kids my age call things Jewish, gay and other terms like that to describe something lame but they aren't really meaning gays or Jews it's kind of a slang.

[the_platypus]

Being in the demographic you guys are talking about, we don't have anything against gays. Most kids my age call things Jewish, gay and other terms like that to describe something lame but they aren't really meaning gays or Jews it's kind of a slang.

oh boy.

[Neil.]

WIWC...

Being in the demographic you guys are talking about, we don't have anything against gays. Most kids my age call things Jewish, gay and other terms like that to describe something lame but they aren't really meaning gays or Jews it's kind of a slang.

...I guess this is the way language changes, but, yeah, sadly, kids here in London call things 'gay' to mean 'rubbish' or 'lame' these days. Unfortunately, they - and perhaps you - are too young to realise that this was actually a way of equating being gay with being rubbish or lame, established by homophic kids the generation before you. Let's hope your generation can see through this and stop using the term in that way.

I've never heard the term 'Jewish' being used as a word meaning anything other than Jewish in London - I'm not sure what you're talking about in that respect.