GOSSIP

[LessThanZero]

man i love it when noise makes those good points!

[Boy With A Problem]

Noise -

How do you feel about the Nazi imagery in some of EC's songs ("Armed Forces" era in particular).

I've always really liked the line in "Chemistry Class" -

"Are You Ready For The Final Solution?"

Double meaning - one of which definitely refers to the Holocaust.

Is a song different than a painting, as it pertains to the taboo?

I'm half jewish myself and have never liked folks running around with swastikas (Sid Vicious) - but is there a place for the imagery in art ?

this thread has taken a strange turn.

[Gillibeanz]

BWAP: My memory is dire, but if I remember rightly my remark re the Nazi reference to the old board list was I had quoted some people were using a Nazi type mentality - thus trying to indicate they were taking the list over in an all conquering manor! . Someone took offence at that and I said it was a joke meaning I wasn't trying to insult them personally just trying to get over my point!

[Sour Milk Cow]

i thought this thread was about North, not nazis. can someone start up a seperate Nazi thread???

[HungupStrungup]

Noise -

How do you feel about the Nazi imagery in some of EC's songs ("Armed Forces" era in particular).

I've always really liked the line in "Chemistry Class" -

"Are You Ready For The Final Solution?"

Double meaning - one of which definitely refers to the Holocaust.

Is a song different than a painting, as it pertains to the taboo?

Obviously I won't attempt to answer for mr. radio, but to me there's a vast difference between Elvis' decidedly anti-fascist references and the indifferent or pro-Nazi usages to which Sid, other punks and skinheads put the symbols of the era. The Pistols may have been joking with "Belsen Was a Gas," but the joke was in decidedly poor taste.

The first time I heard Elvis sing "Calling Mr. Oswald with his swastika tattoo," I certainly paid attention. But I quickly came to know what his sympathies were, so I knew he was issuing a wakeup call with TYM ("You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny/Wait until they've got you running to their night rallies") and particularly AF. He wasn't using brownshirt & Nazi imagery lightly or neutrally or for mere shock effect. He was, as usual, communicating real ideas.

[noiseradio]

Actually, it's about gossip.

And separate has an a. There's "a rat' in separate.

[Boy With A Problem]

Hungup -

I agree with you. Especially as the Nazi imagery relates to "Night Rally" - the line - "... to get you singing in the showers" - notice the s at the end of shower. And yes, dig a little deeper and Elvis is really saying something -Wasn't "Emotional Facism" a working title for AF ?

Here's the problem; Elvis is better at this songwriting thing than pretty much everyone else alive. He can get away with using these allusions because he is very good at his craft. In the hands of lesser lights (Johnny Rotton, Dee Dee Ramone) it can come off as "poor taste" or "cartoony". But do the lesser lights have any less of a right to make an attempt ?

The relevance of posting the Nazi picture on this board is negligable. I have no way of knowing the artist's motives, but he did get a reaction (both the artist and rope).

See this all connects - Elvis leaves Cait = Emotional Facism

[SweetPear]

How is it "wrong" to assume that North is intended to be autobiographical "in any way"? In ANY way????
Listening to the songs, I'd say it goes well beyond just songs that are loosely inspired by recent events. It actually forms a narrative, and while it doesn't name names and give out a lot of specifics, it's much more, MUCH more of a personal, confessional album than he has ever, ever, ever written before.

Sour Milk Cow~
I do agree with POV and quoted that paragraph in my post, but it wasn't stated as the absolute, emphatic, undisputable truth. That's just the point~and it goes both ways. The general feeling (I think!) on this thread has been that North is most certainly an excerpt from the diary of Elvis Costello. All I'm saying is that I think it's wrong to assume that North is a narrative of recent events in Elvis' life. Remember.....

*Because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME*

Only....ONLY if you know him personally and have such first hand knowledge can you say that with any degree of certainty. You can infer anything you want, draw parallels, fill in the blanks but unless you KNOW, then you really DON'T KNOW. Ya know?
But I agree, SMC, that North works as a universal exploration of some basic human emotions (wasn't EC quoted somewhere as saying that?) and that it's the most "personal" record that EC has ever made because it was composed and performed at the piano and in his speaking register. (I read that somewhere too.)
So saying that North is more this than that, I think, is just one's interpretation. Hasn't EC said that he invites the listener to put their own personal spin on his songs?

[Sour Milk Cow]

it's the most "personal" record that EC has ever made because it was composed and performed at the piano and in his speaking register.

I would say that's why the music and sound of the album feels really initimate and personal, but that's not what makes it his most personal album, IMHO. I think the themes are what make it personal, and even if he is extrapolating his life and putting it through the blender of art, it's still quite a thing that he would end his marriage and fall in love (quite publicly) in 2002, and then write and release an album about the end of one releationship transitioning into the beginning of a new love affair. It may be interpretation on my part to some extent, but it's a pretty ballsy move to put out an album like that. If it ISN'T autobiography, Costello is smart enough to realize that many if not most people will connect the dots.

EC has always encouraged the listeners to make up their own interpretations, and he says he enjoys it. But when he gets fan mail from people saying "Shipbuilding" is about two lovers in a boat, that doesn't mean that he didn't intend for it to be a song about the Falklands. I'll be damned if I know what "Battered Old Bird" is about (and I love it), but I'm pretty sure that my interpretation of "45" is that it's about Elvis turning 45 and looking back on his life. Someone else might think it's about a gun, and that's fine, but sometimes there are interpretations that are closer to the mark than others.

[the poisoner]

Actually, it's about gossip.

And separate has an a. There's "a rat' in separate.

and 'tattooed' has three t's.

[Copenhagen Fan]

Noize ...you make good points. On a personal note, my grandfather was killed by the Nazis and is lying in a grave in Luxembourg.....and my father in law was imprisoned by them during the war, and waiting for execution, when a Brittish bomber luckily blew up the Nazi headquarters which created chaos and he was let free by accident. So I'm no fan of them, or their dirty deeds or mental illness, believe me. My point was that I feel some of the symbols have transcended their original meaning. Of course this is not true for all, including people who were actual victims!

AND I must add that people, (such as the white trash hillbilly skin heads in the US that use these symbols for hate are way out of line).....any political use of these symbols is unacceptable.

[bobster]

I've been trying to find the original piece of Nazi "art" or whatever it was that started the whole sidebar with no luck (maybe it got pulled?), but just to put in my two cents worth on an issue of long term interest for me....

I do think that, sometimes, people are somewhat overly sensitive. I can certainly understand an older person, particularly a Holocaust survivor not neccessarily clued in on the irony/sarcasm/shock-for-shock's sake aethetic, being offended and deeply angered by "Belser was a Gas" -- even I was put off by it, even with my perverse fascination with all things Nazi. (It's partly that they turn us Jewish people into these evil supermen, which I know to be, well, completely insane. If I was an evil superman, I'd be too busy controlling the media to post here!)

But, you see, even my above little joke (very little, actually), would offend some, and I think there is a problem with being overly sensitive. This is sort of an intra-Jewish matter which perhaps I ought not to bring up among "the gentiles", but some of us wear the Holocaust like a badge of honor and use it to exercise power we shouldn't need or want. The worst recent cultural example is the suppression of "The Believer", ironically problably the most deeply, theologically Jewish film ever made in the U.S. (or elsewhere?) because a single "Hollywood Rabbi" felt threatened by it's insiders look at modern day Nazi-skinheads.

Of course, part of the themes of "The Believers" is that Jews need to stop defining ourselves via the Holocaust. The film doesn't touch on it, but I believe it's this is the responsible for the "culture of victimhood" which is the one thing uniting Arabs and Jews and in the middle east.

[A rope leash]

Wow, Bob.

A link to the piece of Nazi subject art can be found on my post on page four of this thread.

I just think some people are awful, and awfully talented.

[noiseradio]

and 'tattooed' has three t's.

Thanks! I fixed it.

[SweetPear]

Sour Milk Cow~
I came across this quote in an interview with EC by Simon Hattenstone. I'm sure you've read it by now also. (Heck, I even wondered for a sec if YOU were him!)

Says Elvis:
He asks me if I think people will listen to the record for what it is, rather than as a piece of potted biography. Well, I say, it's inevitable that people will be interested in the story behind it. "I hope it doesn't crowd anybody," he says. "My intention was not to crowd. It was to make something beautiful. It's the only record I've ever made that aspired to beauty as the prime objective. That's really all I was trying to do. Make something beautiful."

But I do, SMC, agree that it appears to be a very personal record and that I do draw parallels between his private life and this record.
It's also always different when you hear the music and are able hear what it brings to you. I've only read the lyrics so far.
OH, I DON'T KNOW!!!

[Sour Milk Cow]

Sour Milk Cow~
Says Elvis:
He asks me if I think people will listen to the record for what it is, rather than as a piece of potted biography. Well, I say, it's inevitable that people will be interested in the story behind it. "I hope it doesn't crowd anybody," he says. "My intention was not to crowd. It was to make something beautiful. It's the only record I've ever made that aspired to beauty as the prime objective. That's really all I was trying to do. Make something beautiful."

But I do, SMC, agree that it appears to be a very personal record and that I do draw parallels between his private life and this record.
It's also always different when you hear the music and are able hear what it brings to you. I've only read the lyrics so far.
OH, I DON'T KNOW!!!

I thought it was a good interview, and nice to hear EC talking about the record at length. I think the parallels are there to see-- I get the sense that maybe EC may be starting to feel slightly uncomfortable now with the personal nature of the songs, since was at pains to emphasize that "You Left Me In The Dark" was about bereavement, not romantic loss. I don't really hear how it could be that way, and I wonder if he isn't using a little bit of misdirection there to throw people off the scent. (Sounds far-fetched, I know, but he has been saying how these are the most lyrically direct songs he's ever written, and yet a song like that makes much more sense about romantic loss than about bereavement)

But the other key point is about creating a thing of beauty, and the music certainly lives up to that. Fortunately, for all my harping about how it's obviously drawing in a new and big way on his personal life, the album works on so many levels that that is really just one interesting aspect. It's not the main thing on my mind when I hear the songs, which I think can be quite universal. When I think of the personal parallels, that interests me more in terms of how this album fits into his overall body of work. But regardless of that, the album is a work of art, not a news report, and I think the emotion of the piece and the music is what rules the day.

[SweetPear]

I can't wait to hear it!!
I'm so excited and I loved that interview also, SMC.


OOOhhh, can't wait , can't wait!!

[DrJ]

As this post originally began as a thread on Mary Coughlan and her gossip about EC, y'all may be tickled to know that she's one on the contestants on "Celebrity Farm" a cheap Irish tv ripoff of Celebrity Big Brother. I just saw 5 minutes of it and it's possibly the worst thing I've ever seen....

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebrityfarm/

Enjoy!

DrJ