Chicago report

Pretty self-explanatory
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Post by wehitandrun »

BlueChair wrote:You have to remember that Elvis Costello, as intellectual and clever/witty as he is, started out essentially coming out of a punk sensibility.

This isn't the first time he's made harsh comments, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Personally, I take comfort in the fact that his personality hasn't mellowed with age.

I'm also kind of bummed out that there's this sudden backlash against Elvis. I just had an awesome week, thanks to the Elvis show on Monday night and related Elvis excitement....

Thanks blue chair, you hit the nail head on with what I was attempting to say... and you were nicer about it.

Lapinsjolis... what's so unoriginal about taking a brilliant self-written piece of music/writing such as "God's Comic", and adapting the character in the song into form, complete with under-the-breath mutterings. He even created the scenary for us in the Boston show.

Is he ripping off himself?

Or is it that his views are unoriginal? Well, sorry if Bush has a lot of (justified) haters.

I think Elvis's rant was a very original way of letting out his ideas. And if obscenities find their way in... ALL THE BETTER, they'll get his point across.

Nothing unoriginal about it(this is a fragment on purpose).





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Post by lapinsjolis »

No, the joke itself is old. It's hardly the point as my joke is lost on you. Blame my age. I don't think making a fan of 25 years walk out is a 'good thing'. So we part on many subjects. The point of the discourse was to say that if you are anti-anything and have an intellect-use your own material-'God's Comic' is his the joke wasn't. It doesn't matter it saddens me that cbartal found himself forced out of the fanbase because he is an intelligent and valuable poster whom we all have and could have learned a lot from. You may think it's better this way I don't. I wish anti-Bush and anti-Kerry people were funny it might make politics bearable for some of us.

Obscenities and personal attacks weaken any intelligent argument.
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Post by wehitandrun »

lapinsjolis wrote:Obscenities and personal attacks weaken any intelligent argument.
That's your opinion... this is not always true. I'm sure you may feel as though saying this makes you sound intelligent, but it is lost on me(as your joke was, right?).

I can see why you're not happy with cbartal's decision, but that is his own decision. If he is so sensitive and loyal to an anti-environmentalist(as the insensitive Bush most definitly is)... then let it be his loss(yes, he predicted that I would say that- but, that doesn't mean that my statement loses all meaning).

I don't see where us, me and you, arguing(or debating, as you'd probably prefer it be called) over cbartal's sensitivity helps any situation.

I've agreed to disagree many a time on this board, and I just might have to make this one of those times. There is no swaying either side here, and I guess we are both justified in our own little ways(and it has nothing to do with age, funnypants).





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Post by wehitandrun »

Uh oh... Neil Young just made a clever chicken-polotics metaphor on Latenight With Conan O'Brien. :roll:



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Post by bobster »

I return -- not so much to defend Elvis and his political sensibilities (see above), nor really to disagree with the lovely and talented Ms. Lapinsjoli, my old friend. (Boy, I'm starting to sound like a U.S. senator now....)

Where was...yes, I return to defend....old jokes! My friends, old jokes are a venerable comedic tradition. Old jokes can be merely familiar like an old friend who's maybe stopped by one time to many but who cares, but they can also become something better, greater. Something more akin to one of my personal favorite weapons in the comic arsenal -- the running gag.

Sure, it's a bit of a comic short cut: Bill Clinton is horny (so horny he essentially destroyed his administration over it); Luciano Pavorotti likes to eat too much; Keith Richard takes some drugs; Britney Spears is, well, you know; Blue Chair once won a prize for "best hair"; Richard Simmons is obviously gay but won't admit it; and Dick Cheney is plagued with more health problems than just about any other (living and active) public figure yet he still continues on in his way, poorly concealing giant loads of seething anger.

In any case, this constant return to the comic well has a bit of a force all its own. That being said, the funny part of EC's crack wasn't Cheney's dying (though, in my current mood, I find that pretty hilarious in my own "Tramp the Dirt Down" kind of a way). No, it's that if he died things might actually get worse because, well, you know, W.'s an idiot and might actually make things worse should he attempt to actually run the country. I wouldn't call it great political satire or anything, but it's funny enough if you accept the premises.

Still, I've got to say that a lot of the joke is in the delivery; yep, I'm falling back on the "you had to be there" excuse -- and he made a remark about cowboy hats and country music that was actually a lot funnier, but I can't quite remember it.
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Post by lapinsjolis »

Well Senator Westal what it lacks in sincerity it makes up for in charm. :wink: I have nothing against old jokes I'd love be someone's May to their Nichols or Comden to Green. It's old BAD jokes, I got the premise but cruelty isn't amusing to me. Humor is relative and perhaps I was mistaken to argue about it. I do expect more from Elvis but given his recent track record that's my folly. I think he must have said far more to upset cbartal to the extent because cbartal doesn't strike me as over-senstive. That's the pity of this.
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Post by elvisisking63 »

That's why I said earlier in this thread: I fear that Elvis will become more pedestrian if he continues to be more outspoken in this manner on politics. He does not seem to have original or insightful views, just an ability to zap liberals' raw nerves.

On the other hand, when he channels his energies into his music and lyrics it comes out fresh, original, biting, and vital. If there's any word that would NOT describe Elvis's musical career, it's pedestrian, and that's why I'd prefer him to stick to the music.
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Post by elvisisking63 »

From Steve's online journal about the Chicago show....gosh, I'm flattered for my hometown to be compared to Lyon, France. Also, it's rich that he says Elvis handled the heckler in "exemplary" fashion! :lol:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The final gig of the tour was a mixed affair, with a bout of heckling from a drunken punter, interrupting one of the quieter ballads. Always this ruins the concentration on stage, however briefly, and it takes perseverance and a lot of self control not to allow one persons alcohol problem to interfere with the enjoyment of the rest of the hall. As always E.C. dealt with the situation in an exemplarary fashion, and the concert turned into one of the best and possibly longest of the tour. There were some unusual songs thrown into the melting pot, including “Talking in the Dark”, and the short set of new songs received a very strong response. I have the feeling that Chicago is a little like Lyon in France, a capitol city, that’s not quite the capitol, so the audiences tend to be aloof to begin, but when you finally win them over, they show their appreciation in a big way. Outside the hall, again in the very cold air a long queue of people braved the cold, to collect an autograph and a photo. The Horrible Goodbyes at the hotel elevator, E.C. has an early morning flight, and the rest of us late afternoon. Thank you E.C. for another very enjoyable and interesting tour.
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Post by selfmademug »

elvisisking63 wrote:That's why I said earlier in this thread: I fear that Elvis will become more pedestrian if he continues to be more outspoken in this manner on politics. He does not seem to have original or insightful views, just an ability to zap liberals' raw nerves.
I suspect he would reply that he's not trying to pass himself off as a pundit, just as a concerned individual in a visible position. I'm very glad for his being vocal on these issues.

I don't know what it was specifically that put off Cbart, and I'm sorry to see him go. But if offense was taken at the critques of the war or of the efforts to ban gay marriage, well, I find it difficult to cast Elvis's views as the offensive or hurtful ones.
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Post by BlueChair »

Well said, Ms. Mug.
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Post by wehitandrun »

I just don't see what some of you expect from Elvis, if you find even his views unoriginal, which somebody did say.

He can't be an eccentric about everything... and believe me, I know you like your artists eccentric.

Bleh, I give up. Very well said, mama' mug.






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Post by bobster »

lapinsjolis wrote:Well Senator Westal what it lacks in sincerity it makes up for in charm. :wink:
Well, I was TOTALLY sincere. Ms. LJ is in, in fact, both lovely and talented. Just because it's a ratpack-era cliche doesn't mean it can't be true!
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Post by lapinsjolis »

I was teasing you a bit but thank you and. . .ring-a-ding-ding. 8)
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Post by Mr. Average »

I ponder the situation that Elvis Costello, mid-concert, walks to stage front and center and hails the chief, regaling President Bush as a strong international leader who is working to restore an element of US National safety for the populace, and diminish the effect of terrorism arond the world by compromising sanctuary for the cowards who dismember innocent men, women, and children in the name of religion and politics. I wonder what would be the sentiment of many of the ultra liberal Bush haters if he spoke out on behalf of the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the National Security Advisor...insisting that while WMD's have yet to be revealed, and may never be revealed, the extremely well-documented programs for creating them were not just firmly in place, but were active. The scientific leaders of many of these programs have attested to the verity of this.

What if Elvis ended his shows by wishing the Blessings of my Lord and Saviour on his fans?

Would cbartal be responding to this? Would you? As many of the board members are avowed agnostics and atheists, and liberal Bush haters who have convinced themselves that his only motive in Iraq was to avenge the suicide attempt on Dad, and that there was NO OTHER VALID MOTIVE (the 25,000$-$50,000 reward to the family of any terrorist, Al Quedo or other, who succeeded in killing innocents by blowing themselves up being completed ignored) in the Iragi invasion, how would you respond to his free speech views?

If his views don't reconcile and resonate with your own, are they less valid? Would you mutter "asshole" under your breath, or simply swallow your opinion in favor of the music and the art? I wonder.

I took my 11 year old an her friend to see Mystic River at the Mann Chinese theater in Hollywood today. It took us forever to get there because there was a a huge anti-Bush rally and all of the streets were blocked off around the theater. AS we approached the theater on foot, we were screamed at by many of the participants for refusing to sign "impeach bush now" petitions. Screamed and cursed at. Eleven year old girls and a conservative father and his wife, who politiely refused to sign because we hold a different view. I celebrate free speech. It is a wonderful freedom that has the propensity to make asses out of those who exercise it inappropriately. Like Michael Moore.

Ironically, we were taking the kids to view a fantastic film that my wife and I have seen and have much appreciation for. Especially the incredible talents of Sean Penn and Tim Robbins. I hate their politics. My wife does as well. But we wanted our daughter and her friend to enjoy the art...the incredible performances of these two brilliant actors. Thankfully, in the forum of the movie theatre, there is no opportunity to pepper the storyline of the film with personal political views. It would disrupt the art.

Elvis should perform his music, his art, and take advice from the famous Descartes...and shut the fuck up about politics and his own personal world view. I find it incredible that members of this board will belittle pop insects like Brittany Spears for making a dumb-sounding comment while a microphone is shoved in her face, but pratically deify Elvis for doing exactly the same.


The double standard is so laughable.

One of the great record labels of my lifetime is the now-defunct "Stiff" records. Among many tag lines for the label were: "Fuck Art, Let's Just Dance" and "Shut up and Dance"

In my opinion, if an artist wants to opine about world views, they have every right to. But not on my dime...not to a paying audience who is investing in the art and the diversion via the art. They can attend a rally of their choice. But they often will not take the time, nor make the effort to do so. Too important. Too much effort. Take the shortcut, and impose beliefs at will.

WeHitandRun... hell, nevermind. It's not worth it.
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Post by elvisisking63 »

Well put, Mr. Average.

And to put it a different way, I would advise Elvis that not every person in the room who loves his music agrees with his politics. So as a musician you mold your politics into your music and let the music speak for itself. When you start taking silly potshots you just look like a fool in the eyes of those who don't agree with you. And if your attitude is "Fuck those who don't agree with me" then you're well on your way toward being a self-indulgent asshole. I'm much happier for Elvis's attitude to be "Fuck those who don't like the music."

Now, having said that, I think we may be blowing this a bit out of proportion. Almost all of Elvis's political "commentary" in this particular concert WAS done in the context of a comic character in a song, and even though I didn't agree with much of what he was saying I found it easy to laugh along with him.

But as I said in an earlier post, it seems like he IS getting more comfortable with talking politics out of context these days, and I'd be disappointed to see him become one of those artists who mouths off about every issue that jerks his liberal knee. As much as people want to admire anyone who speaks his mind, I'm a believer in a person achieving some measure of authority and credibility before speaking his mind ... especially on public stage to a captive audience who paid upwards of $60 a pop to hear music . . . quiet love songs, no less!
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Post by selfmademug »

Mr. A: If Elvis had said those things (with the exception of the Lord and Savior part, which I'd have no problem with at all, I would take it as faith-based well-wishing), I would think less of him, and would probably refrain from seeing him live. I'd probably continue to listen to his music, but to be honest, I'd be less enthusiastic. The things he was talking about are real life issues, not merely something isolated called 'politics,' and they come into lots of art (not all, by any means, but lots) whether you like it or not, and there is art whose 'politics' I find enriching, and some I find destructive.

But politics and the issues they reflect are hugely complex, it is CRUCIAL to keep listening, and as carefully and thoughtfully as possible, and to examine your owns views and blindspots accordingly.

It's funny, your summaries above of Bush detractors are almost (almost!) as black-and-white as Rope's! Yes, I hate Bush; I think he's both misguided and incompetent. But you know, in my work I have been called a 'smiley-faced propagandist' by people to my Left, and a 'sanctimonious Bolshevik' by those to my Right. It's annoying, but what is there to do but keep on with the work I think is important? And for Elvis, too I suspect.

For the record:
1. I'm quite certain that Believers are the silent majority here, and as has been hinted at, most folks like to keep such stuff private. I have solid respect both for faith and for privacy.
2. No one should scream at children in a protest, but nor, then, should they bring them to protests to hold signs saying "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", etc. It's delicate stuff, no?
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Post by Mr. Average »

I cannot relate to your #2 above. I have no idea how that has any, any relevance whatsoever to anything that I said. It does make for a nice powerful ending to your post , however. But suffice it to say that :

1. I would never bring my children to a gay rights rally to distribute an oppossing view. In point of fact, I did not bring my child to this rally. It selfishly blocked us from enjoying art. We decided to traverse it, and fight through it to fulfill our plans to make her 12 year birthday celebration a success. I am glad that she experienced though, because it has galvanized here impression about one thing...that these people who shroud themselves in hate are the most selfish people she has ever experienced in her still tender 12 years, and she was moved to grow to be more open-minded and civil. I am proud of her conclusions.

2. The implication that it would somehow be the fault of mine if I WERE to bring her to a gay rally to espouse an oppossing view and she were to be cursed and screamed at is absolutely amazing to me. Is that your implication? That there are valid conditions to curse and scream at children? And then shift the blame to the recipient of the cursing and screaming because, "hey, ya know, you came here, so you deserve to be cursed!"

Heaven help us if that form of convoluted reason is now conventional wisdom.

If I have misinterpreted, I am accountable and I apologize. But I don't believe that I have....
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Post by wehitandrun »

Mr. Average wrote:If I have misinterpreted, I am accountable and I apologize. But I don't believe that I have....
Am I still not worth it?




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Post by pophead2k »

Mr. Average wrote:In point of fact, I did not bring my child to this rally. It selfishly blocked us from enjoying art.
Mr. A, while I whole-heartedly agree that any person who would scream or curse at an eleven year old is completely in the wrong, it is hard to reconcile your previous statement that you love free speech with calling the protesters 'selfish'. They were practicing a constitutional right to free assembly. That does not mean that their behavior toward your daughter was justified, but assembling in protest to a public figure is far from 'selfish'.
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Post by selfmademug »

Mr. Average wrote:I cannot relate to your #2 above. I have no idea how that has any, any relevance whatsoever to anything that I said.

If I have misinterpreted, I am accountable and I apologize. But I don't believe that I have....
No, I think you did. I didn't mean to imply your responsibility in the protests on either side. I'm not as against you as you think, Mr. A. I am just saying there is incivility on both sides, and exploitation of children on both sides. You didn't bring your kid to the protest, I understand. I'm just saying if one does, it's a delicate issue, and the parent in question should think about what they are bringing the kid into, and what words they are putting into their mouths, both. Nothing more.
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Post by bobster »

Hey, Mr. Average --

What a day to come to my neighborhood! It's funny because I actually thought about joining the demo as it is so close to me. The reasons I didn't are at least in part laziness -- but also the kind of behavior, or really more the attitude that you encountered. Also, I'm not sure just what to be "for" at this point. "Bringing the troops home" sounds great but, well, invading a country does bring with it a lot of responsibility. I'd like a big UN presense, etc. but I'm not sure we can or should completely leave all forces out of there. Hard to fit that kind of thought onto a placard.

Also, while this particular protest was pretty much endorsed across the board by local antiwarish organizations of all stripes, I have big problems with the leadership/provanance of the main organizer, ANSWER which, by my lights, typifies all that is worst about progressive politics. (Their rightwing equivalent would include "players" from the John Birch Society and Eagle Forum.)

Whatever. Some (though not nearly as many as rightwingers would have you belief) of my brothers and sisters on the left are humorless, self-righteous morons and crowds tend to magnify that effect. On the other hand, far more of them are pretty much like the very cool folks on this hear board -- but at times they can be drowned out.

It's never cool to be impolite or unpleasant to non-agreers and I'm sorry they harshed your mellow. Hope you guys had a great time, otherwise.
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Post by bobster »

One more thought on this issue.

Mr. Average brings up a good point which I sort of touched on. I do think that, if we want conservatives to tolerate the occasional tirade by EC or other liberal/progressive/leftist artists, we should at least entertain the idea of doing the same.

I guess it's easier for me becaues of my days as a Science Fiction geek. In that world, in those days, anyway, there was a tremendous amount of tolerance between leftwing and rightwing Science Fiction writers and people. I think it was because the status of being Science Fiction geeks sort of trumped any political differences even in an era which was divisive as things are right now, but more so (we had to be united against the anti-SF world, you know).

One incident: Joe Haldeman wrote a wonderful book in the seventies called "The Forever War" which was essentially Vietnam in space and was widely considered and answer book to an earlier SF milestone, Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" (please drop all thoughts of the movie right now -- the filmmakers had zero respect for the source material and caricatured the book's rightist politics. Heinlein was always thought provoking, if nothing else.). In any case, there was concern there might be some bad blood between Haldeman and Heinlein -- but Heinlein had the good grace to go out of his way to praise Haldeman's book.

And things aren't so different with the cooler people in music. Elvis has praised Merle Haggard many times. I'm sure his politics are WAY different than Ricky Skaggs, but they've worked together. I'm sure they've both said things in concert that would anger me, but, as Stuart Smalley would say, that's...okay.
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Post by BlueChair »

Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog gone it: People like me :oops:
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Post by laughingcrow »

Sorry if you think I'm going over old ground, but I've been thinking about this intently, and have drawn my own conclusion (similar to many of my friends here).

If an artist I respected for their work, (which is what we in particular like Elvis Costello for) made a reasoned statement of their thoughts on a subject, which I happened to disagree with, then it would make little difference to my appreciation of their art (though it may encourage me to pay less attention to their thoughts and comments).
I love the work of Gauguin , but I don't love the fact he was married to, and in love with girls under 16 (which I might cautiously add, was not as taboo as it sounds, it fitting with Haitian culture) - it's irrelevant to my appreciation.

If, on the other hand, the comment was irrational (for example, were they to say ''Everyone in Scotland is a bastard and an idiot'' then I would probably 'go off' their art, and giving them praise (and money).

Elvis Costello as an artist, like so many of you have pointed out, is a man who is driven by expressing his thoughts (emotional, and sometimes political) in his music. He has had a history of speaking his mind, and in my opinion, more power to those who have the courage to say what they believe. It is thus to be expected from Elvis Costello he might say such things.

It is a shame that EC has lost someone's respect, but I hope that Cbartal might eventually see that this kind of opinion shouldn't detract from his enjoyment of the music that he has enjoyed for many years. After all, democratic politics are never supposed to be taken too personally :wink: .
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Post by so lacklustre »

Whatever your own beliefs if you can't poke up with a five minute diatribe (with humerous tones) during a 2hour+ show then you're pretty thin skinned. I can't believe that Cbart did not take the comments in the context that they were being delivered and stay for the rest of the show.
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