which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Pretty self-explanatory

WHAT LP is MORE of a CLUNKER???

WHEN I WAS CRUEL
6
35%
THE RIVER IN REVERSE
11
65%
 
Total votes: 17

bronxapostle
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which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:36 am

i hope i created this poll properly...or that someone can help!!

taramasalata
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby taramasalata » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:51 am

Sorry guys, I find your poll to be the biggest CLUNKER of them all... what a waste in time... investing in negativity...when it's just some music, our hero felt joy in making and releasing it.
Don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy the critical approach we hold dear on this board, especially when it comes to HIM.
But it was the creative and intelligent level that always was inherent in it, that I love.
And not this cheap bashing.

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:59 am

Appreciate your opinion...and i don't usually partake in EC negativity AT ALL! I think this just arose because i was hellbent on defending CRUEL.... moreso than bashing RIVER!!! but, its created and what the heck, I'll let people state their vote if they'd like. Or not. Best, ba

fred darden
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby fred darden » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:43 pm

That's why I always preferred music to sports. Even if they don't hit a homer, score a goal, whatever, it's still a winning situation.

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:45 pm

Well said Fred....and ill repeat what i often say. I wish the record was as great as the tour.

taramasalata
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby taramasalata » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:07 pm

bronxapostle wrote:Appreciate your opinion...and i don't usually partake in EC negativity AT ALL! I think this just arose because i was hellbent on defending CRUEL.... moreso than bashing RIVER!!! but, its created and what the heck, I'll let people state their vote if they'd like. Or not. Best, ba


Appreciate your response, bronx apostle!
And of course I can actually feel for you a lot, with your spontaneous and direct standing up for defending WIWC!
And it is quite likely that I could have reacted quite similar to you... :D

Though not being my favorite of EC's album, but it is definitely an album I do remember with lots of positive feelings:
for the fact of being a comeback itself- not the appropriate expression for any single period in his recording career ever, but still somehow after the 4-year long hiatus after the masterpiece PFM -, the joy of him in experimenting in new sounds (including getting to know the wonderful work of Mina especially of the 60's), the number of exceptional tracks you did already mention (the only one that never made it for me was My little blue window...) and, definitely, the two marvelous shows of him with the newly established Imposters, first in Zurich and second in San Francisco, some weeks later.

I do also like TRIR for its down to earth-sound and, overall, the taking part of the wonderful Allen Toussaint, but of course, CRUEL is much more of a Costello album.

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:18 pm

taramasalata wrote:
bronxapostle wrote:Appreciate your opinion...and i don't usually partake in EC negativity AT ALL! I think this just arose because i was hellbent on defending CRUEL.... moreso than bashing RIVER!!! but, its created and what the heck, I'll let people state their vote if they'd like. Or not. Best, ba


Appreciate your response, bronx apostle!
And of course I can actually feel for you a lot, with your spontaneous and direct standing up for defending WIWC!
And it is quite likely that I could have reacted quite similar to you... :D


And thank you trmsltaaaaaa....we have had a long history TEN YEARS I WOULD BET, of usually agreeing with each other. I don't like being downhearted about ANY music we get...YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT THAT. these forum things, especially amongst us long timers is not to cause dissent. Rather, just the sheer fun of discussion. Kind of like the silliness of eliminating one at a time our least fave GH or MAIT songs. No harm, just a time killer at these pages....maybe welcome now more than ever in these current days.

NOW WILL YOU CAST YOUR VOTE IN THE POLL? :lol: :lol:

taramasalata
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby taramasalata » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:03 pm

bronxapostle wrote:
And thank you trmsltaaaaaa....we have had a long history TEN YEARS I WOULD BET, of usually agreeing with each other.


that sounds like you are having a brilliant memory, I bet you must be right!

bronxapostle wrote: NOW WILL YOU CAST YOUR VOTE IN THE POLL? :lol: :lol:


:shock: :D

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:30 pm

Honestly, i have GREAT recall sometimes. And others not. As i thought we interacted before, it was easy to read a few posts as you are NOT a bigmouth like me. And i did see a couple old friendly posts to each other verifying my hunch. Is that WIWC clunk vote yours? LOL

Hawksmoor
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Hawksmoor » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:37 pm

I don't think either is remotely 'a clunker', but FWIW there are a lot more tracks on WIWC which I regularly listen to than there are tracks on TRIR which I regularly listen to. So, using that criterion, TRIR loses. Although I do think the title tack of TRIR is one of the best things he's ever written, and is slinkier and more clever than anything on WIWC.

jmm
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby jmm » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:09 pm

I like them both but I count the greatest love as included on RIR and that puts it over the top

Ba, maybe you need a re-think towards tearing off you own head for the good album revolution— lol my friend!! Hope to see you soon
I too am a limited, primitive kind of man

chickendinna
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby chickendinna » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:56 am

I think both releases are good albums. They are both very solid, but neither is great in my opinion. However, they are both far from clunkers.

JerseyPride78
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby JerseyPride78 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:05 am

Adore both of these records. Rate them both above Goodbye Cruel World, Spike, Mighty Like a Rose, Painted From Memory, and Useless Beauty.

Poor Deportee
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Poor Deportee » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:05 pm

Hmmm...I assume my mischievous reference to WIWC as a "clunker" in the other thread triggered this post. As others have noted, it's not clear why we should specifically contrast WIWC with RIR. Neither is vintage EC, however, that's for sure. RIR is good for what it is, a side-project in response to Katrina and in homage to Toussaint. WIWC doesn't have that excuse.

EC went through a few years there in the late-90s and early-2000s where one of two things seemed to have happened: either his inspiration level was simply not what it had been (he was a 'semi-sick craftsman,' in Lennon's words), or else his best moments occurred when he was subsuming his distinctive lyrical voice under the demands of a rigorous formalism. The best efforts from this period - PFM and North - take on the latter character. Offerings such as ATUB and WIWC seem to show him attempting, without much success, to rise to the level of the sharp apercu, memorable images,and emotional force of his best work. I would speculate (and I'm sure this would drive him crazy) that living in a dismal marriage with an alcoholic simply ground down his creative spark in this era. Of course he remained as hard-working and prolific as ever; it's just the writing which suffered.

On WIWC specifically, there are good songs on there, naturally; this is EC we're talking about. The first four songs range from good to great. It's after that that the inspiration slackens. Frankly, not one of those cuts is anything special ("Window" maybe has a chance). Some of the oft-touted highlights, such as Tart and Alibi, are simply overrated. Tart neither hangs together coherently nor offers the sharp images and insight of his best stuff; Alibi is a plodding bore, frankly, made worse for mistaking itself for one of his classic excursions into biting commentary. The splendid chorus of 'Blonde' is sandwiched between harsh and grating verses. Sorry, it's just not happening on this record. It belongs with GCW (which has much better writing on the whole) as a nadir among his major pop/rock efforts.

My feeling is that the return journey to A-grade Elvis Costello begins with TDM, stutters promisingly but erratically along with Momofuku and SPS, and then kicks into overdrive with the resplendent NR, WUG, and Look. And long may his current hot streak continue.
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I hope no living thing cries over his bones

Miclewis
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Miclewis » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:28 pm

I actually feel that has never been a clunker album from Elvis. Even the album that Elvis himself thinks is his worst (GCW) has some great moments and kind of works as a cohesive album. WIWC has some of my favorite and greatest Elvis songs. People seem to forget how truly great songs like Radio Silence and WIWC No. 2 are. Plus I just love Spooky Girlfriend.

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:57 pm

Poor Deportee wrote:Hmmm...I assume my mischievous reference to WIWC as a "clunker" in the other thread triggered this post. As others have noted, it's not clear why we should specifically contrast WIWC with RIR. Neither is vintage EC, however, that's for sure. RIR is good for what it is, a side-project in response to Katrina and in homage to Toussaint.


Precisely PD....I only ran with the CLUNKER banner because you anointed WIWC in that manner. I just stepped to the plate to defend it and i guess came up with the idea of the poll of it versus my opinion of his weakest album. All in good fun. Best wishes, ba

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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby emotional_fascism076 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:39 am

Radio Silence never fails to give me chills. It's one of his finest moments. For some reason I connect it to this Godley & Creme song that features Paul McCartney on backing vocals

https://youtu.be/mKizfO5fAbk

Both are on the radio subject so maybe that's why but who knows.
Who on earth is tapping at the window?

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Fishfinger king
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Fishfinger king » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:02 am

Poor Deportee wrote: Alibi is a plodding bore, frankly, made worse for mistaking itself for one of his classic excursions into biting commentary.



I remember at the time it was released how disappointed I was in Alibi. Live it was stripped down, short, punchy and full of vitriol. The recorded version is a boring overlong damp squib. Rarely has EC failed to deliver on record as badly as this. Should re-record a la No Flag.

I’m not voting in this as I don’t think either clunk- I like both in their own way although neither are creme de la creme.
Is that so surprising nowadays?

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:00 am

i guess as a guy who loved ALIBI back when it was ALIBI FACTORY in 1999, the song could do me no wrong, any version. May i especially recommend the LIVE IMPOSTERS take from October 28, 2002 from Newark, New Jersey....killer NEIL YOUNG style. 8) 8)

jmm
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby jmm » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:07 pm

Ba, I love the version of girls talk on that one!!

It was a great show and souvenir afterward too!
I too am a limited, primitive kind of man

bronxapostle
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby bronxapostle » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:27 pm

that was one of my top ten shows EVER jmm....i believe!! WHAT A ROOM!! don't know why he never returned there.

jmm
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby jmm » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:28 pm

I’m waiting for it too ba!! I’ll save u a seat
I too am a limited, primitive kind of man

invisible Pole
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby invisible Pole » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:34 pm

It reminds me how I re-discovered and grew to love WIWC three years after its release. It even made me create a thread about it. You can find it here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3636&p=53803&hilit=Revisited#p53803
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Arbogast
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Arbogast » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:29 pm

BA...

I, for one, wholly approve of (occasionally) polling people on "worst"s in regard to EC, or any artist. A while back I'd asked the Wiki crew to name his three worst songs, and I got some really indignant responses. My attitude has always been that, yes, this is a fan's site and we're all here because we love EC. However, that doesn't preclude discussing the good and the bad, critiquing and analyzing from ALL directions. It gets boring, and is unedifying, to read rave after rave about everything. At a certain point people go beyond being fans to being "marks," and that's intellectually bankrupt. And dull as hell.

With that being said: I'm shocked that you view WIWC as a not-so-good album; I actually think it's a highlight of the past 25 years. Tons of great tunes (WIWC, Alibi, My Little Blue Window, Daddy Can I Turn This, Dissolve, and oh my God, Episode of Blonde). River in Reverse made much less of an impression on me; seems like more of a novelty than anything else.

Weakest albums IMO: Goodbye Cruel World, Momofuku, Look Now. Mighty Like a Rose, Spike

Arbogast
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Re: which of these two long players is MORE of a clunker?

Postby Arbogast » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:32 pm

bronxapostle wrote:i guess as a guy who loved ALIBI back when it was ALIBI FACTORY in 1999, the song could do me no wrong, any version. May i especially recommend the LIVE IMPOSTERS take from October 28, 2002 from Newark, New Jersey....killer NEIL YOUNG style. 8) 8)


That Newark show was terrific. The a capella version of Still Too Soon to Know remains a singular highlight of my EC concert-going experience


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