Personal beliefs

[bambooneedle]

Noise, I was hoping that the Jacko thread would be restored and speak for me, but now doubt that will happen. So I'll respond to your comments here to me (my bold), and then let whoever was the least bit interested be overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed.

Bambooneedle,

How is it not antagonistic to suggest that my God might be a freak?

How when we have a sense of humour. The thread was getting heavy, so I threw in "So was Jesus a freak?" for some light relief. Antagonistic!? Gimme a break. I was disappointed that you didn't show more trust... we both have been around for a while, and there's never been a problem.

By the way, I agree that statements like "there's only one master of life and death" are sanctimonious at best and dismissive at worst. That's why I don't go around making them. I did say the bit about knowing God, and evidently it was taken in the same sort of way. I apologize for that.

Not really, and no need to apologize - you can have your say, as long as I can have mine and so can anybody else.

I was only reacting to being told by you that people who believed doubted deep down and that knowledge was superior to belief. If I misunderstood what you meant, I again apologize. But between that and asking if Jesus was a freak, I think I was probably on the right track in my understanding

Whether you may have misunderstood what I meant or not is not really the point. No-one has to agree with me. And, I can't control the extent of people's reactions if they don't like something I say. I may react about things privately, but I don't try to hold anyone (let alone a message board) responsible for the extent of my emotional reactions. This shouldn't be about special reverence for some politics or creeds in particular but more about allowing for a diversity.

------------------------

Here's how it went (no-one has to read, so don't blame me if you start yawning):

A Rope Leash:
<0:

Relevance is in the mind of the beholder. I guess if a person thinks they're going to Heaven, then mankind and the planet they live on mean nothing.

So, why don't we just blow the whole thing up in one big nuclear suicide explosion?

Doubt, that's why. If I really thought God and Heaven existed, I'd hasten my end for sure. The realist perspective would be that all those people who have died really are dead, and those we killed we really did kill.

We killed them dead. We should feel awful about that, and not make up stories about a fantastic afterlife just to make ourselves feel better about our sickening ways.

bambooneedle:
That's right, if you only believe something, as opposed to knowing it, you necessarily doubt it. It's our Judeo-Christian masochistic cultural and psychological heritage to want to believe in the unbelievable and at the same time doubt it though. Growing up as a Catholic and being sent to a Christian Brothers school, I can say that even then I never really believed in God, even though I thought I did. Of course, you have to acknowledge that the unknown is vast.

As for Jacko, what was that saying about casting the first stone? No-one really knows if and how guilty he is. He does seem to be one of those guys that looks like he's lying even when he's telling the truth, though.

noiseradio:
I don't believe in God. I know God.

bambooneedle:
So do I, cos I'm him... but only if either everything is God or nothing is God.

LessThanZero:
A rope leash wrote:
I guess if a person thinks they're going to Heaven, then mankind and the planet they live on mean nothing.


Well, if we show love to mankind and the planet, we're working with God. If we persevere through the crap, we're developing our character, which gives unfailing hope towards our eternal purpose right?

What's so funny 'bout peace, love & understanding?

ROPE, you'll love this old testament GWB reference!:


4 "See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith [4] -
5 indeed, wine betrays him;
he is arrogant and never at rest.
Because he is as greedy as the grave [5]
and like death is never satisfied,
he gathers to himself all the nations
and takes captive all the peoples.

6 "Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying,

" 'Woe to him who piles up stolen goods
and makes himself wealthy by extortion!
How long must this go on?'
7 Will not your debtors [6] suddenly arise?
Will they not wake up and make you tremble?
Then you will become their victim.
8 Because you have plundered many nations,
the peoples who are left will plunder you.
For you have shed man's blood;
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.

9 "Woe to him who builds his realm by unjust gain
to set his nest on high,
to escape the clutches of ruin!
10 You have plotted the ruin of many peoples,
shaming your own house and forfeiting your life.
11 The stones of the wall will cry out,
and the beams of the woodwork will echo it.

12 "Woe to him who builds a city with bloodshed
and establishes a town by crime!
13 Has not the LORD Almighty determined
that the people's labor is only fuel for the fire,
that the nations exhaust themselves for nothing?
14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD ,
as the waters cover the sea.

15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.
16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory.
Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed [7] !
The cup from the LORD's right hand is coming around to you,
and disgrace will cover your glory.
17 The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you,
and your destruction of animals will terrify you.
For you have shed man's blood;
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.

A rope leash:
Well, those words are comforting...

I must say that when Noise (and for that matter <0) says that he knows God that I must take him at his word. As I am only able to be in my mind and not his, I must assume that the God he speaks of really is God, and not some product of the mind acquired through indoctrination, or worse, some other force posing as God. Since all of the evidence of genuineness resides within Noise, then it must be assumed that Noise is not bullshitting one little bit. He really does know God, and God has proven to Noise that the God he knows is actually God, and not something else.

So, it cannot be questioned, except from the position of my mind, which does not know God. I was not indoctrinated as a child, and my attempts to seek God are quelled almost immediately by what I've come to know as common sense, which may be percieved by others as evil spirits.

One thing I do know (and I admit I know this through youthful "experimentation" with psychoactive substances), is that the human mind is capable of the most amazing things, and apparently, the average person uses very little of the mind's capabilities.

It doesn't bother me that I cannot see God. What I can see is the crazy shit that some people who do see God get involved with: deception, avarice, war, discrimination, hatred, ect. We all know it's true.

I'd really rather not be associated with it. They sent my brother to Hell, some of them, in their minds, anyway...

laughingcrow:
Apparently Iraq are going to invade America, and strategically remove Michael Jackson from his influential media position. They are saying neverland has 'weapons of gigantic destruction', and have backed it all up by showing some grainy super-8 footage of Michael Jackson is a giant white nuclear Transformer, accompanied by his legions of anthrax-chimps. According to some kindergarten kids who did a crayon picture that has been incorporated into the Iraqi war dossier, the first attack will be a suicide bombing of Basra committed by the skeleton of John Merrick the Elephant Man.

Many Iraqi fans of Jackson have taken to the streets in protest.

noiseradio:
What I continue to resent the hell out of is this assumption that those who know and believe in God are deluded intellectually. That if we would only give ourselves over to reason that we would recognize that there is nothing beyond this mortal coil. I've never tried to foist my beliefs on anyone here. I've never tried to convert anyone or insist that anyone was wrong. Rope, I never sent your brother to hell. Not in my mind or anywhere else. I'm truly sorry that some other assholes have given you such grief. But I'm not one of them. I don't think any of the believers who regularly contibute to this board are among those assholes either. Nevertheless, you and others continually call our intelligence into question. Your invective and vitriol are neverending. And you're welcome to spew. But I am tired of the smarmy comments and open statements of how dumb I must be to continue to recognize God.

You're quite right that I was indoctrinated as a child. But the God I know is nothing at all like the one I was told about growing up. The God I know I experience tangibly. He's not an apparition in my mind. He fills up my senses. It would be intellectually dishonest for me to pretend I don't know him.

While I have no interest in debates over whether or not God exists, I am not going to sit idly by and let people continually denigrate those on the board who prefess some sort of faith. There are too often elements of bigotry cast towards those who believe on this board. Among a group of people as intelligent as this one obviously is, there is no place for that. And if we can't discuss topics of faith without insulting one another, we ought not discuss them.

BlueChair:
Exactly. People who practice bigotry towards people who are religious is just as bad as people who are religious who practice bigotry towards atheists.

Everyday People
Sly and The Family Stone

Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong
My own beliefs are in my song
The butcher, the banker, the drummer and then
Makes no difference what group I'm in
I am everyday people, yeah yeah

There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha - we got to live together

I am no better and neither are you
We are the same whatever we do
You love me you hate me you know me and then
You can't figure out the bag l'm in
I am everyday people, yeah yeah

There is a long hair that doesn't like the short hair
For bein' such a rich one that will not help the poor one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha-we got to live together
There is a yellow one that won't accept the black one
That won't accept the red one that won't accept the white one
And different strokes for different folks

(C) 1968 by Daly city Music

A rope leash:
Believe it or not, not to long ago in this very same country, people who said they saw God, or talked to God, or knew God were considered to be rather looney, even ordinary churchgoers who professed such realities. Nowdays, the faithful wear it like a badge of honor.

Now, if you read it, you'll see that I never said anyone was dumb. In fact, I said your beliefs cannot be questioned, because it is inside you and there is no hard evidence that can be garnered and brought forth to prove it to another person. I also stated very clearly that it is just "some" believers that use their beliefs for ornerous purposes.

I'm sorry you take it personally, Noise, but you can't say you "know" God and not expect folks to look at that statement with a bit of curious suspicion. I know you're smart, that's obvious. But you're doing what many Christians do when their faith is called into question: You're acting as if you are being persecuted, when in fact you are only being challenged.

The fact remains that I do not start fights or wars, or condemn others for what they are. Sure, I question others, and discriminate among which folks I might associate with, but I never say they are going to "Hell", or coming back as bacteria. It simply isn't true. But, Christians do (maybe not you), Muslims do, Jews do, and the list goes on, even Hinduism relies on such separations.

If you're gong to align yourself with people who hold such "truths", then you're going to have to expect that others will question them. I don't know what church you attend, Noise, but I'll bet that if you were to question some of the tenets that you might be surprised at what lies beneathe the weekly rhetoric. You can't tell me that Christianity does not condemn homosexuality, and aetheism. It also condemns those that believe in "other" Gods. That's just the short list.

So, I'm bigoted against the bigots. I'm good with that. I'm not starting wars, it's those who think they have another life coming that are.

Now, I've tried to leave before because I'm a bit tired of offending people with what I am, but I was asked to stay by more than one, and even by you, Noise. The fact of the matter is that I won't shut up; that, since 911, I vowed to never again let religious types have a free ride on what they believe. Sure, you've got a right to believe any crazy thing you want. The problem is that you don't have a reasonable, testable argument to counter mine, but you still insist that what you say is true, that God exists, and you know him, and that's that, and anyone who denies or challenges it is out to get you.

Indoctrination sounds awful but there's no shame in it when it happens to almost everyone. I surely don't hold it against you, I just want you to see the damage that is done when people chose to not question what is fed to them from a young age, and then go blindly along with the herd. You can say you know God all you want, but you can't show me God, can you? So why get upset when someone calls you on the matter?

I really am tired of offending people by simply talking about what I feel is common sense, so, if you don't mind, I'll take my leave of the board, and give it up to the people who already run everything else in the world, those who believe in "God". On this board, I'd say that's about eighty percent, so I'm sure Elvis will be quite impressed when he looks in and sees that everyone is so reverent in their beliefs, just like he is.

Ta-ta, ya'll!


King Of Confidence:
Long time no post here, and I may regret this, but -- I thought Rope's remarks raised a fair point of epistemology, namely -- how CAN anyone outside of the mind of the claimant to "know God" verify the truth of the claimant's experience? It's impossible to rationally give assent to the claim, because one is completely outside of the mind experience of the claimant. Given one's own assumptions and experience -- say, with mushrooms, and a condemned brother, and observation of the general insanity that some (not all) religious belief is generating in the world today -- one would be expected to bring those to bear in assessing someone who claims to know God.

Whether Rope was being smarmy or vitriolic (I didn't detect it, at least in comparison to other of his posts ), it's a legit response to someone who claims to know God to say "it's either true, or there are other explanations." It seems to me to be the ONLY rational response, whether one is a believer or not.

bambooneedle:
So was Jesus a freak?

----------and that's the last I saw-------------

As far as I can see, nothing worth deleting or batting an eyelid over up to this point. What's wrong with being a freak anyway? I hear he wasn't ordinary, and that he stood up for all sorts of freaks.

[A rope leash]

I've had about enough of the constant references to boredom, yawning, and eye-rolling in respect to my posts!

It's all a lot of pretentious crap, just like the little pointy-eared slutkin said it was, so why don't you just move on with your prescious brain and find something more interesting?!

No, really I'm just kidding. I talk about your posts all the time. Everybody's. All the time. To everybody. Always.

Nice job on the rework, there Bamb. You snatched it all up inact, like raising a sunken boat. That must have been fun!

[bambooneedle]

Rope, sorry to have to break it to you like that... no, when are you going to write your novel? I'd read it (honest!).

So what did I miss after that last post?

Cope, this board could do with a few commie greenie lezzies....

[Copenhagen Fan]

oh Bamboozle...I was just getting used to your avatar with choke and asphixation poster boy!

[A rope leash]

I've been thinking about making my novel downloadable through my website. It's a crazy motherfucker written by a crazy motherfucker.

It's the second novel that I should be working on now. It's a crazy motherfucker.

The last thing I saw on tht thred was your Jesus-Freak question. I think that Jesus was a freak, and perhaps a weed. Here we have a man that is, by the cherished accounts, the son of God. That makes him singular among men, or at least extremely rare, and the attributes that distinguish him from man are such that he should, for all reasonable sorting, be cast with man in appearance and environment only. As a man, he's godlike, even if the miricles are be discounted. As a god, well, raising Lazerus was pretty cool, but David Copperfield moved the Statue of Liberty, so fooling a lot of Roman-era peasants can't be too tough.

So yeah, he's a freak, but not in an "Elephant Man" kind of way. He's a freak in the Superman kind of way, kinda like John C. Holmes.

[bambooneedle]

Feel free to continue

(Not that I need BC's permission...)

All facetiousness aside, it's a legitimate question.

I'd remembered something I'd read, by Alan Watts in his book Cloud - Hidden, Whereabouts Unknown, a chapter called Was Jesus A Freak? which I'm pretty sympathetic with, in that, as an atheist, I don't just think that everything is random or chaotic... just that I don't believe in a theological God -- a god with a particular identity. I can't speak for other atheists but those kinds of prejudices do apply to them often -- that they probably have no morality, etc... good reason in itself not to bring it up usually. I believe (well, I know) there is order in the world -- the planets revolve perfectly, nature is perfect and so on. And I include humans within -- not separate from -- all that. Nothing too complicated. I've italicised a brief section in it that I relate to... some might call what it describes God... they might call it many things. I don't like the word and everything it conjures.

Noise (if you're still around), the subject of philosophy/religions doesn't come up often and, like you, I might not mind contributing to points if the moment is right (though after the recent commotion it could be unlikely to arise). But I admit that in the middle of a Jacko thread was a less than ideal time to involve myself in it, and that I could have been more graceful.

Anyway, here it is:

July 1971
Was Jesus A Freak?

A few days ago I gave a ride to a rather pleasant hippie couple who seemed to have no particular destination. I asked, 'What trip are you on?' He said, 'Like spiritual trip?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'We're on the Jesus trip.' 'Whose Jesus?' I asked, 'Billy Graham's or mine?' 'Well, it's all sort of the same, isn't it?'

It is not. For Billy Graham follows a long tradition, both Catholic and Protestant, wherein the gospel (or 'good news') of Jesus has been eclipsed and perverted by pedestalization, by kicking him upstairs so as to get him out of the way, and by following a religion ABOUT Jesus instead of the religion OF Jesus. Obviously, Jesus was not the man he was as a result of making Jesus Christ his personal savior. The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase 'son of' means 'of the nature of', so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. 'I and the Father are one.'

When Jesus spoke those words the crowd took up stones to stone him. He said, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father, and for which of them do you stone me?' They answered, 'We're not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.' And he replied, 'Isn't it written in your Law that 'I have said: you are gods'? If he addressed those to whom he gave his words as gods (and you can't contradict the Scriptures), how can you say that I blaspheme because I said 'I am a son of God?' But the self-styled Christians, and especially the fundamentalist bibliolaters, always insist that Jesus was the ONLY son of woman who was also the son of God, and thus call upon all the rest of us to follow the example of the one human freak who had the unique advantage of being the Boss's son. This is not a gospel: it is a chronic hangup, a self-frustrating guilt trip. It isolates the career of Jesus as an exhibit in a glass case -- for worship but not for use.

It is obvious to any informed student of the history and psychology of religion that Jesus was one, of many, who had an intense experience of cosmic consciousness-- of the vivid realization that oneself is a manifestation of the eternal energy of the universe, the basic "I am". But it is very hard to express this experience when the only religious imagery at your disposal conceives that "I am" as an all-knowing and all-powerful monarch, autocrat, and beneficent tyrant enthroned in a court of adoring subjects. In such a cultural context, you cannot say "I am God" without being accused of subversion, insubordination, melagomania, arrogance, and blasphemy. Yet that was why Jesus was crucified.

In India people would have laughed and rejoiced with him, because Hindus know that we are all God in disguise-- playing hide-and-seek with himself. Their model of the universe is not based on the political states of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Persians, whose awesome dictatorships still hold sway through the Jewish, Christian, and Islamaic religions, even in the Republic of the United States. In Hinduism the whole universe is like the Holy Trinity-- one as many, and many as one. (And, of course, the Hindus are the despised of the earth, having been reduced to utter poverty by Muslims and Christians.)

But Jesus had to speak through a public-address system-- the only one available-- which distorted his words, so that they came forth as the bombastic claim to be the one and only appearance of the Christ, of the incarnation of God as man. This is not good news. The good news is that if Jesus could realize his identity with God, you can also-- but this God does not have to be idolized as an imperious monarch with a royal court of angels and ministers. God, as "the love which moves the sun and other stars", is something more inward, intimate, and mysterious-- in the sense of being too close to be seen as an object.

So it turns out, alas, that our new breed of Jesus freaks are following the non-gospel of the freaky Jesus -- of the bizarre man who was unnaturally born and whose corpse was weirdly reanimated for a space trip into heaven. (One can, of course, interpret these ancient images in a more profound and non-literal way, as I tried to show in my book Beyond Theology.) But to identify Jesus the man as the one and only historical incarnation of a divinity considered as the royal, imperial, and militant Yehovah, is only to reinforce the pestiferous arrogance of 'white' Christianity -- with all the cruel self-righteousness of its missionary zeal. They may perhaps be forgiven for their ignorance, but today, when we are exposed to all the riches of the Earth's varying cultures and religions, there is no further excuse for the parochial fanaticism of spiritual in-groups.

Jesus freaks are still in a state of enthusiastic innocence, as yet unaware of the frightful implications of their claims. But they must realize that Christianity would seem ever so much more valid if it would stop insisting on being an oddity. Christianity has universality, or catholicity, only in recognizing that Jesus is one particular instance and expression of a wisdom which was also, if differently, realized in the Buddha, in Lao-tzu, and in such modern avatars as Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna, and, perhaps, Aurobindo and Inayat Khan (I could make a very long list.) This wisdom is that none of us are brief island existences, but forms and expressions of one and the same eternal 'I am' waving in different ways, such that, whenever this is realized to be the case, we wave more harmoniously with other waves.

Christians, who so often affect prickly and astringent attitudes, may cluck and pish-tush that this is all very imprecise, vague, woolly, and sentimental. But in the harsh clacking of their disciplined voices, their accurate distinctions, and precise calculations, I hear the rattle of rifle bolts and the clicking of heels. "Like a mighty army moves the Church of God". But this is no way for a gentle man.

[bambooneedle]

So anybody got any thoughts on the piece (or parts of it)? Agree? Disagree? (Indifferent?) Are we gods (besides Cope of course, who obviously is)? Are we like powerless little worms probing in the dark? Come on Misha, here's your chance to flex your intellectual muscles...

[Lipstick]

At the risk of sounding pious, I have to share my favorite scripture with you all. It has really gotten me through a lot of hard times.

In fact, I think I'll make it my new signature:

[noiseradio]

Amen, sister.

[LessThanZero]

(One can, of course, interpret these ancient images in a more profound and non-literal way, as I tried to show in my book Beyond Theology.)

ON SALE NOW AT THE GREAT GREAT LOW PRICE OF *farting sound*!

[bambooneedle]

*farting sound!*

Hey, I'm offended! Quick, BlueChair, delete this thread immediately!

[LessThanZero]

BAMBOO! DIDN'T MEAN TO OFFEND!

I was farting in the general direction of the wears-pusher!

[bambooneedle]

Lucky.

[Verbal Kint]

The Statement that "There is only One Master of Life and Death" is sanctimonious and dismissive only of it is accepted as such. I espouse my beliefs. It is a a product of Faith. Because I feel strongly about my beliefs does not infer that I think that those who do not consign to my belief structure are beneath me, or that their position is any less valid. I applaud any individual who proudly proclaims beliefs that are based on a thorough review of conscience, experience, and reason. If they differ from my opinion, fine. It is what makes the world go round.

To think that this board can or should ever be considered a vehicle for conversion of a belief system is absurd. However, if a remark is made...even a simple one life "There is only one Master of Lfe and Death", and that remark contributes to the thinking of even one individual, then it is neither dismissive or sanctimonious. It is a contribution to a discussion, and a firm expresion of a powerful belief.

That's it. Noise, you stand up for yur beliefs your way, and I will stand up for them my way. I respect your view, and applaud you for your stance on this issue.

[bambooneedle]

The Statement that "There is only One Master of Life and Death" is sanctimonious and dismissive only of it is accepted as such.

Depends on the context, but yeah I'd basically agree with you. The point I had made way before was that other things can be said as well; that there shouldn't be a double standard. Welcome VK, by the way.

[A rope leash]

I never saw the statement as being all that sanctimonious, but I did see it as being dismissive. It is saying that there is only one.

If there is a master of life and death, then it makes sense that there would be only one. Perhaps he is challenged on occasion by lesser students of life and death mechanisims. Perhaps he is sometimes beaten by a challenger, and the master of life and death crown is handed to a new entity. But, there can be only one. (I use the pronoun "he', but the master could be a "she" or an "it".)

I see the statement as a challenge. As mere humans, we are incapable of mastering life and death, so a master of life and death would be a defacto god to humans, and I think that is the point of the statement as it is applied to the average reader: There is only one god, master of life and death.

How any human could have reliable information that would allow them to make such a statement is beyond me, but then, I'm not Mr. Average. If we say that there is only one god, then our statement relies upon a particular definition of the word "god". The entity described as the "master of life and death" might have nothing to do with the dead planets. So, when we say there is only one master of life and death, then we are also issuing a challenge to all that hear us. Others will ask, "What? How do you have this information, and can you back up your statement with something revealing?"

So, let me guess. The Master of Life and Death is God, your God, the Only God, The One God. If that is what it means, then maybe I just realized that it is a sanctimonious statement. There are many, many Hindus that would disagree, and some Buddhists, and a lot of people like me who will question the probabilties.

Or maybe Mr. Average is just relaying his gut feelings. If there is a master of life and death, of course there is only one.

Where is Mr. Average anyway? Nice post, Verbal K...

[Misha]

Hey, I hardly ever check this board, but I'm in now....thanks for the heads up Bambooneedle...

Ok, here is my official stance on all religion.....I don't know. Make that "I'm a big bucket of I don't know." That is my usual official answer.

I subscribe to Skeptic and Skeptical Inquirer.....and yet I volunteer at the Catholic Worker. I was raised with buffet religion, which means that my mom was pissed at her Catholicism background and church because they denied her divorce from an abusive husband so she decided to raise me with no religion and told me that I could go to any church I wanted to, so I did, with all my friends, at different times, all different religions.

I have learned that everyone has a belief system. Whether that belief system is that there is no God (capitialized out of respect to others), or that there is one God, or that there are many Gods, or that they are God (found frequently here in CA). My armchair theologist opinion is that we don't know...we won't know, until we are dead, then we will either be back as a black cat, or be in heaven, or be back as a ghostie, or just be dust and be done with it.

I have friends who are very confident and feel their beliefs. I respect them and they respect me. I don't make them show me tangible proof of God and they don't tell me that I'm going to hell for not saying, "Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior." It's a pretty good arrangement. We talk religion often, and I remind them I don't have the answers, and I'm not looking to change my mind.

That said, I have developed my own thoughts on Christianity and Jesus and God.

Organized religion, historically, and currently, isn't a good thing. Most religions have turned into corporate monsters where there is a lot of taking and not a lot of giving going on....this makes me think of the Pharisses (I have no idea how to spell that). So, with this theory, Jesus will be back to toss over a few more tables one day. I tell everyone I know, if there is a God, stay the hell away from Cardinal Mahoney, as he is going down and there is going to be a heck of a downdraft when he dies. (This is in reference to the multi-million dollar new cathedral they built in Los Angeles, as thousands of homeless are left outside in the cold. I have seen horrible management in the Catholic church,,,,i.e. molestations(not remarkable that they happened, but the cover up is what I'm referring to), taking money from the poorer parishes and not putting it to use in the parish. Protestant churches forming elitist societies where members are encouraged and shamed into only being with others in the church and convincing their flock that everyone not believing the "Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Saviour" sentence are going to hell. That MY RELIGION IS THE RIGHT ONE AND YOURS ISN'T, TOO BAD YOU ARE GOING TO HELL, AND I CAN LEAD YOU TO THE RIGHT PLACE IF YOU JUST LISTEN TO ME AND BELIEVE thing doesn't work for me.

God, if He/She/It (will be referred to as He, to prevent me from going typing nuts-and to be respectful to others) is there, I'm sure He doesn't need me fawning over Him. I picture our whole universe as a dust bunny in one of God's shoes in the back of His closet. He is confident in Himself, and doesn't need me living in fear of him and or obsessing over Him. The theory that I know of religions, is that He created us. Running with that theory, I'm going to have to assume He knew what He was doing by giving me the brain and life that I have, and trusts me to do what I will. He would rather I took my ass out and volunteered at a homeless shelter and doing hospice work (which I do both) than to have me put a friggin bumper sticker on my car or go to church to talk about how holy I am. Talk is cheap, and no one would know this better than Him. I'm sick of "religious" people sitting in their houses and going to church and not volunteering. How they can do that with the words in their bible is beyond me.

Jesus---total humanitarian. Here is a guy in his 30's, not married, telling everyone to share and help the poor and unwanted, and yelling at the established churches. Was he gay? Don't care, doesn't matter. Was he a total rebel....hell yeah!!! I volunteer with the Catholic Workers, and if you ever want to see what I think Jesus stood for in action, go there. They take everyone. They don't try to fix them. They feed them, they clothe them, they shelter them. No judgements. No trying to get them off drugs or alcohol, just love. Totally hard to do. Amazing moment of my life: One of the homeless women, when she felt her clothes were too tight, would take them off and run around angry that the world was keeping clothing from her. She was psychotic, but thanks to Reagan was on the street and homeless. One day, she does this, and I am the one around in charge that she will let talk to her. A volunteer comes running in yelling that she is "going off" in the backyard. I went out there and got her to the side, before all of her clothes were off and we sat on the back stairs. She was crying...she was talking to me in Spanish, calling me alternately her little daughter and her mother. I soothed her, and she asked me...How do you know there is a God, miha? This was not the time for my buffet lecture. I looked down and there was this little flower growing out of a crack at our feet. I said, "You know _____, I don't know. But, when I look at a flower like that one there, I think that there would have to be. How can each flower be so different? How can it be so complex? I don't know _____, but I do know that if there is a God, he would want you to put your clothes back on, ok?" It was a beautiful moment, and one I'll never forget, so if there is a God, He must have had a hand in helping me figure out what to say.

Jesus and God don't need cheerleaders. If they exist, they would rather people tossed their bibles and church trips and helped one another, be nice to one another, let one another in a lane of traffic, stop trying to sue everyone to keep from earning an honest living or having any personal responsibility. If there is a God in my world, He's not a narcissist.

So, I remain here at I don't know. I'm ok with that. If I die and don't meet His calendar of requirements, I'll be ok with that. Though, I suspect He'll more than likely be thankful that I helped others. If there isn't a God, I'm happy with the fact that I helped others....no harm, no foul. And I tend to believe that we all become a speck of dust.....though, if there is an afterlife, I hope it has Elvis on the muzak.

(I am now stepping down off the religious soap box, until you want me to get back on it.) (Warning, I have a story for almost any occasion!! )

[Boy With A Problem]

Jesus and God don't need cheerleaders. If they exist, they would rather people tossed their bibles and church trips and helped one another, be nice to one another, let one another in a lane of traffic, stop trying to sue everyone to keep from earning an honest living or having any personal responsibility

perfect.

[Verbal Kint]

Draperdan became Mr. Average because of vicious abuse of an internet forum by a past contributor. Mr. Average was unable to post to this board for reasons that remain unknown or understood. Not sure if it was a matter of censorship or not, but ALL posts were rejected from Mr. Average a while back. He lost interest in the board in a very Skinnerian fashion. Plenty of stimulus and no response because my contributions were all ascribed to the "invalid sesion" bin. Thus, I became Verbal Kint...but kept the same password as Mr. Average, which caused some posts to be attributed to Mr. Average and some to Verbal Kint...a personal fictitious hero of mine.

IT appears that Verbal Kint is now accepted as my new screen name. I am oppossed to rotating screennames and identities...which some of the old guard will recall from the old days when some contributors changed their identities like they SHOULD change their undershorts.

So Mr. Average is alive and well, but far less contributory than in the past for reasons that are understandable to those who have been around for a while. For the newcomers, I am unwavering in my Faith and my beliefs...perceived by many as a sign of my personal weakness and low self esteem. Only problem is this: I do not have a low self esteem, and I am generally not considered to be a person of weak conviction. Faith is Faith is Fait, It is a function of belief. It is not incontrovertable. It is not empirical. It is Faith. If it is consideredd hat I have invested in a fragile belief system, and that my failure to prove my God either via the scientific formula, or in a court of Law (that is a joke) is indicative f cowardice or personal weakness, I accept the collective admonitions of the board...and move on.

I suppose I really need to explain it to the Ultimate, on the day of judgement. I'll spend a little extra time working on that, using the thoughtful discourse of this board to refine my position and stay sharp.

Thanks

aka Mr. Average/Verbal Kint

[Misha]

Thanks BWAP!!!

[noiseradio]

Verbal,

I'm sorry if my earlier post seemed like an attack. I only meant to say that I could understand why a non-believer might take offense at that sort of statement. You've explained yourself nicely, and I think Rope has more eloquently expressed the sort of offense I was talking about than I could (since your statement doesn't actually offend me).

[bambooneedle]

I'm really not offended by a statement like that either, personally don't take it very seriously. And it's not as if somebody is saying, "bambooneedle, you must accept it or else you're no good".

Others will ask, "What? How do you have this information, and can you back up your statement with something revealing?"

That's absolutely fair, and so would be the same sort of question levelled at, for instance, the statement made about that what is only believed, as opposed to known, is necessarily doubted. eg. "How do you come to that conclusion?", or "I disagree with you in this way...", or "Yeah, but you may have overlooked that this is how it works...". It didn't have to be taken as it was (though I've already said that the timing could have been better), cos as far as I understand human nature I do sincerely think that.

The deletion of the thread thing was a drama, but there's nothing in my posts there trying to prove somebody wrong or claiming to make any kind of "reasonable argument" to do the same. I expressed a point of view, that's all... and would entertain discussion about it. That doesn't mean that something confronting to either myself or anyone else won't ever come up (or that I mind a cuckle).

Anyway, all that is ancient history...

To think that this board can or should ever be considered a vehicle for conversion of a belief system is absurd.

Couldn't agree more.

Come on Misha, here's your chance to flex your intellectual muscles...

Uh... that was just in reference to something posted at the time.

thanks for the heads up Bambooneedle...

My pleasure, Misha. In saying that "everyone has their own belief system", would "their own way" have been more precise? Because "system" might seem to imply something preconceived or selfencapsulated, something too sure... I can understand how some people would want to avoid that... the problem is, that when you have to act, there's no time for consulting all the rules and regulations of a religion or a system and mulling over them. You just have to act intuitively, fairly spontaneously and precisely, according to what's right for you... The more system-like something is, the more it would tend to inhibit that, IMHO. It might make you constantly second guess, or make responses conditioned.

Once, my ex-girlfriend and I were subject to threats by a scumbag flatmate of hers, over money and just the fact that he was a miserable loser. I had to take that seriously. She was so frightened she could barely speak coherently without falling apart every time she thought about it, though she stayed with me for a few days until we finally moved everything out and into the new place. I was ready to act in response to his threats, including that he might "throttle" me. Not knowing what the hell he was capable of, and as much as I dislike violence, I suspect I was practically ready for anything. As they say, a lot goes out the window when survival instincts kick in.

[Misha]

Bamboo,

Well, since I don't know how to quote you without quoting everything you quoted, I will say that you are correct!!! "system" is not what I was going for..."way" works better for me, too!!!

Sorry to hear about the psycho flat mate. Hopefully he doesn't know where she lives now....

[bambooneedle]

"correct".

We got away ok. The thing was that it wasn't her choice to be around him to begin with; the fault of another flatmate (with name on lease)... She didn't stay there long.

[A rope leash]

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... xhome.html