Personal beliefs

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BlueChair
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Personal beliefs

Post by BlueChair »

Like any community it's important to remember that we all come from different places and have a certain set of beliefs. So long as these beliefs do not harm others (i.e. racism, sexism, etc. will not be tolerated), we should be free to express them without being attacked.

Therefore, if you can't be nice about someone else's beliefs, I suggest you not bother bringing them up, or worse, attacking them.

Free to be, you and me!
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King of Confidence
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A protest

Post by King of Confidence »

BlueChair et al,

This message, in tandem with the apparent deletion of the Wacko Jacko/God thread in the Annex, pisses me off.

I would argue vehemently that Rope's response/s to Noise's assertion to know God were very far from the attack that Noise took it as, and I would propose amending your post to reflect a little more nuanced understanding of religious/philosophical discourse, namely, if you feel the need to make a claim to know God, it's a legitimate subject for inquiry and/or criticism, (and maybe or maybe not mockery) among people here who are so inclined to join in. If it's not, then this is not an Elvis Costello board worthy of the name.

The disappearance of the thread is a loss to the board for the additional reason that in it, Rope says adios. And fairly eloquently, I thought. I know he's done it before, and perhaps he'll wander back in. But whatever hackles he may raise -- and I've rolled my eyes at his posts many a time -- his outlook is needed, and this board would be way, way poorer for his absence.

This is just weak.
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BlueChair
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Post by BlueChair »

The thread was deleted more because it harbored unnecessary bickering from all ends of an argument that could have easily continued for another 20 pages, an age-old argument that was annoying to more people than just me.

The issue is not about who overreacted or who didn't, it's about the inanity of the argument.

I apologize if anybody would have liked to post even more on that thread, and I'm sorry if I offended anybody with its removal, but I felt it had to be done.
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King of Confidence
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Post by King of Confidence »

Inane? This whole board is inane. I thought that was the appeal of it.

The obvious, fairer response would be, if you think a thread is inane or annoying, don't read it, and don't post to it. It's pretty simple. They die their own deaths.
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noiseradio
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Post by noiseradio »

I'd like very much to clarify something, if I may. I didn't take Rope's singular post as an attack. I took several of Rope's posts, along with the posts of others on that thread and several others as unfairly dismissive of the intelligence of believers. When, for example, bambooneedle stated that people who believed in God had to necessarily also doubt it because they couldn't know it and then went on to, more or less, say that the only reasonable position was that there was no God, I took offense. I felt that saying "I know God" was a way of punching a hole in the assumptive claim by bambooneedle that believers have serious doubts about their faith. I wasn't trying to make that statement stand as a provable fact. I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone else should take that statement for granted. As King of Confidence said in the now-deleted thread, no one can be expected to take my word for it, as it's my experience and not necessarily anyone else's. All I was trying to do was counter the notion that I was full of doubts and that these blanket statements about Christians actually applied to all (or even most) of them.

Rope took me to task and very sarcastically I might add. People who missed any attack in his post didn't read them carefully. When he said "people throughout the ages who have claimed to know God have normally been qualified as looneys," he was calling me a looney. That's an attack. I get sick of it. I said so. I don't wish to debate the existance of God. It's pointless. But I also don't wish to constantly face statements which call my beliefs idiotic.

If I wanted to play that game, I'd point out that Christians don't run the world. I'd point out that there were atheist regimes as well. I'd point out that while horrid things have been done in the name of Christ, equally horrid things have been done in nations that were officially religion-free (Stalin's purges, anyone?). But it would look like namecalling towards atheists and members of other religions. It wouldn't mean to be, but it would end up being so. And that's not worth doing.

I don't care if the thread got deleted or not. I'm certainly not embarrassed about anything I posted. I hope Rope comes back, and I'm sorry he felt the need to go. It's his decision, of course. I'd welcome his return, and his intelligent, well-thought-out commentary. But I don't welcome from anyone statements like "those clowns are Christians who prayed together about how to take over the world" or "if I believed I was going to heaven, I'd blow everyone up to ensure my fate. And the only reason Christians don't do that is because they really don't believe," etc. No one from any opther faith would accept that treatment. Atheists and agnostics would not accept that treatment. Why should Christians?


Blue, you can delete this post if you want. If I'm crossing a line or making matters worse, I cheerfully withdraw it. But I just don't understand the need for people to cast disparaging remarks on people's deeply-cherished beliefs. The deal should be that I don't try to convince you that God exists, and you don't try to convince me that He doesn't. Play nice or don't play.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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King of Confidence
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Post by King of Confidence »

I would still argue whether Rope's motives in posting the two posts I read were to attack you, Noise. I did read his posts carefully, and even the looney business seemed intended to point up the fact that a person or group confronted with a claimant to know God, from outside that person, is going to bring his/her/their own assumptions and experiences to bear on assessing the claim and the claimant.

On the other hand, you have the experience of all or most of Rope's posts, which I don't. Maybe he has gone after you more blatantly.

Yeah, Blue, feel free to delete this, pace my own opinion about inane threads. This one is not doing much good.

Although I'm never going to make it off of 37 posts at this rate.
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oily slick
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Post by oily slick »

boy i gotta keep up. i have no interest in anything to do with michael jackson, which i assumed that thread did, so i didn't read it. the thread was deleted because it "harbored unnecessary bickering"? "you felt it had to be done"? you mean others were pming you saying "take this off"? i get nervous when we fight because of what happened before and i pull my punches, rightly or wrongly, but an element of crap has to be allowed doesn't it. i suppose i should be quiet cause i don't know the details, but the vibe seems off. i'm pulling my punches right now and i better.
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A rope leash
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For me to poop on!

Post by A rope leash »

It's pointless to debate the existence of God?

Atheists and agnostics get treated like shit all the time. They get treated like a bad odor.

They are often misquoted. I said those clowns were "rumoured" to have prayed together, and I only said it was POSSIBLE that their decisions were tainted by their beliefs. GWB has said he believes God put him in office to fight a "war on terror".

I did not say I would blow everything up if I believed, I just said I didn't understand why it was the case that we should stay in this world when another, much nicer world exists very nearby.

I didn't say Christians don't really believe, I said they had doubts about it. In many cases, it's a very muted doubt, obviously, but absolutely no one wants to die, and I wonder why that is, if death is to bring us to paradise.

The atheist view is not even recognised in most media. No one who claims to be an atheist could ever get elected to any major post in the US government. That's my basis for saying God-believers run the world. Do any athiests teach at the school your child goes to? If there are any, I'll bet they keep their mouth shut.

I surely never said that athiests couldn't be bad people, but go ahead and try to link me to Stalin, just remember I scored 90% compatability with Elvis on the test, and anything you say about me probably applies to him also, so...

I had meant to make a point about the mind, and to point out the fact that since such statements as "I know God" come from intelligent people like Noise, then there must be something to it. But, of course, I went to far. William F. Buckley would call me a "God killer". Sounds awful doesn't it? But, the way I see it, you can't really kill God, because God is only a concept. Religion, which is usually based on this concept, is the single most divisive force on the planet, and is also one of the most dangerous. Do you think that's incorrect? Well, let's hear your side.

As for this conversation being inane, that is really calling the kettle black. I enjoy this sort of banter, but I am not "everyday people". We could argue as to whether it belongs here on an Elvis Fan board, and I'll start the argument by saying I'm pretty sure Elvis delves into the deep once in a while himself.

I appreciate the folks who back me up, and even cheer me on. I even hope that it makes for fun reading (Hi KofC!). But I can't deny the fact that I'm pissing in people's porridge sometimes and taking a bit of snickering joy along with it. Combine that with a general addiction to posting on the board, and it really begins to stink. I should be writng another novel, not fucking with the minds of anonymous cybertizens who probably actually view me as a freak show of sorts.

So, I want to say goodbye so bad...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le5284.htm

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Post by bambooneedle »

The thread should be up there for anyone to read and make up their own minds about. No-one has to agree with anything anybody says. I know I didn't get antagonistic in any way, or anything like that. And, from what I saw of everyone else's posts (I only saw up to my "So was Jesus a freak?" post. If anyone wants to see a copy of the thread up to then, pm me, it's still in my computer), neither did Rope or anyone else. By a long way. I didn't see any petty or personal bickering.

You know, it's funny - people can make statements like "there's only one master of life and death" as if it's assumed to be a taken-for-granted fact by all. But if somebody says something that seems to contradicts such an opinion, and somebody takes offence, the thread gets rubbed out.

Noise and BlueChair, even if my statements were just as noise says (which they weren't), so what? I repeat, nobody has to agree with what anybody says, let alone decide to be so offended when they're obviously not even directed personally. But, because of the censorship, we can't even see how it was now. This really is lame.
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Post by laughingcrow »

Hey I just wanted to talk about Michael Jackson....

People can believe what they wanna believe as far as I'm concerned and I'll just let them be happy with it (there's no point making people feel bad because I might not agree with their beliefs). I didn't think that the thread was so awfully offensive, but to Bluey's point it woulf have gone on forever with no real conclusion...

once again though, I think people are tkaing this board and what it says FAR far too seriously....it's not real life, because none of this would be said were we all standing at a bus stop together, we'd all be holding hands and talking about Alison.
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Post by so lacklustre »

I'm sure your intentions were well meant but this is ridiculous, are you going to delete all threads where posters have different beliefs? Can you not allow board members to decide for themselves what they want to read? I was mildly affronted by some of the claims and interpretations on that thread but saw no reason for it to be removed. I was tempted to add to the thread but couldn't really be assed because I know I would be hitting a brick wall, but it doesn't mean I didn't want to read other people trying to knock it down.

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Post by noiseradio »

I hope this is understood, but I certainly didn't ask for the thread to be removed. I was offended by some things that were said, and I posted my reasons. I didn't think the thread needed to be removed.

Bambooneedle,

How is it not antagonistic to suggest that my God might be a freak?

By the way, I agree that statements like "there's only one master of life and death" are sanctimonious at best and dismissive at worst. That's why I don't go around making them. I did say the bit about knowing God, and evidently it was taken in the same sort of way. I apologize for that. I was only reacting to being told by you that people who believed doubted deep down and that knowledge was superior to belief. If I misunderstood what you meant, I again apologize. But between that and asking if Jesus was a freak, I think I was probably on the right track in my understanding.

Rope,

I agree that religion has been one of the most divisive issues in world history. I've gone on record here many times as saying that I want very little to do with religion. I don't think belief in God and following a religion are the same thing in all cases. I would say that you're a religious atheist, for example. But it's a different thing to say that horrid things have been done in the name of religion than it is to call people who have faith in God are somehow stunted. You can pretend that you didn't mean to imply any such thing and that you've never called the intelligence of believers into question. You can claim that you don't mean to implicate anyone on thios board who believes when you hammer away constantly at Christians everywhere else in the world. But it's a disingenious claim. By indicting my faith over and over agian, you indict me. By making sweeping generalizations about Christians, you include me. I do not wish to be connected to the crusades or Jerry Fallwell any more than you wish to be connected to Stalin or his purges. And of course that was the point of me bringing up Stalin. Your above response makes it clear that you resent the implication that your atheism should in any way connect you to Uncle Joe. You should resent it. It's a load of crap. For the same reason you resent it, I resent the incessant jabs at faith, whether mine or someone else's.

You said I took your words out of context or just misquoted you. I tried not to. I intended to go to the thread itself and pull quotes directly. It wasn't there, so I relied on my memory. If I got something wrong, correct it. But I think it's safe to say that you have great antagonism towards people of faith, especially Christians. And while I understand some of the reasons why, I can't help but grow tired of having that taken out on me, even indirectly.

None of this is posted in an effort to get you to stay, leave, or anything else. You asked some questions, and I tried to answer them. If you stay, we'll talk. If you step on my toes, I'll holler. I would expect no less from you. If you go, Godspeed.

P.S. Yes, there are atheists at my son's school. I have been teaching for 10 years, and there are atheists in every school in which I've taught. Yes, they are outnumbered, but that happens to be true everywhere in the world. Several teachers on my campus are Jewish, some are Mormon, and I'm sure there's a score of other belief systems. Some of us are married, some not. Most are straight, some (including my boss) are gay. So what? We teach kids, and our personal beliefs (or lack of them) are not part of what we teach. I teach history, not faith. I feel confident that my colleagues who are atheists teach their disciplines without trying to disuade others from believing. It's professionalism. You imply that the Christians can talk freely onm campus but that atheists can't. The truth is, these topics don't come up much at all, but when they do, we tend to respect the rights of others to hold their own beliefs in peace. I think we can do that here, too.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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A rope leash
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Yep, everybody just lets it happen...

Post by A rope leash »

Maybe I'll go back to playing the noun game...
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Post by Lipstick »

Bluechair didn't write, but could have:

"It's my board, and I'll delete if I want to,
delete if I want to,
delete if I want to..."


I think the problem with the Jacko thread is that it was reduced from a debate to mudslinging. Debates are interesting, stimulating, challenging, hopefully witty and mind-broadening. Mudslinging reduces the validity of the debate/debators, their position and their points.

This board is a very "lefty" place. Lots of pro-democratic, anti-republican and anti-establishment, including anti-christian, rhetoric. A lot of it is not very original--that is, these ideas are freely thrown around in all forms of the media, from sit-coms to film to literature to news broadcasts. I've come to expect it, and am not surprised by it, but it does get old.

Debate should be welcomed. People should be able to say what they think. But can they/we say it without slinging mud? Can it be said in ways that are not reduced to, "Yeah, well your nose is too big." Or in this case, "All of you people have noses that are too big."
?
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BlueChair
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Post by BlueChair »

Alright, from now on I won't delete any of those kinds of threads.

Feel free to continue your debate here.
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Post by bambooneedle »

Regarding apparent concerns about any of my comments: If the Jacko thread was up, everyone would be able to make up their minds. So I'm not going to bother saying anything else about this, or about what is in the thread. I already have.
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Post by Copenhagen Fan »

Jeeez...I feel cheated that I missed out on the Jacko gig...! Not to mention Noize being called a LOONEY....

just for the record, I always think it's cool in movies where the villan is about to kill the good guy and he asks "where the hell is your precious God now to help you?!!".... :lol: :lol:
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Veering

Post by A rope leash »

To be clear, I did not say at any time that Noise was a looney. I thought I took sufficient steps to ensure that it was known that I thought he was intelligent.

What I said was, that thirty or forty years ago, saying that you saw God, spoke with God, or knew God was generally considered to be cause for folks to wonder. even among the church-going public. Maybe some of the older posters could back me up on that (if I had a year, I could prove it with reasearch).

It's different now, probably because mass media has shown to everyone that smart people do believe in God, and stand by thier assertions on the matter with great persistence. In any case, let me send out more apologies to Noise and averyone else.

I think the "where's your God now" quote comes from Ben Hur. Cheif Wiggam gets a good shot at it on an episode of The Simpsons, too...!
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Post by Copenhagen Fan »

Rope...jeps, BEn hur among others...I think it's a big theme....I dig it as a concept....I look forward to dying at gunpoint with a sick bastard forcing me to beg to God for mercy.
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Post by noiseradio »

Rope,

Then I grossly misunderstood you, and I'm sorry.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
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A rope leash
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Pundits of the Deep

Post by A rope leash »

I'm a round-about kind of writer, and I know what I'm saying is almost never crystal clear, especially when it's all dressed up in sarcastic colors.

There is no reason for apologies, as I found the debate to be invigorating and enlightening. At least we aren't yelling at each other like a couple of stupid rednecks. We're better than Crossfire, and somewhat deeper.

A man holds a gun to the head of a rope leash, and says, "Beg God for mercy!" A rope leash begs God for mercy!
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Post by noiseradio »

A very practical puppy. :wink:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
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Post by cosmos »

Do you have the ability to "lock" a thread....where people can still read it, but can't post there? That way you can stop the posting when it becomes too intense, but you needn't delete the thread. Just wondering....
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Post by bambooneedle »

Yeah, they can... for some reason the "should threads be deleted?" thread was locked yesterday, until I PMd Taz. Personally, I think that they should die naturally, and that locking might cause more controversy than if they don't. It's another form of censorship if people can't add to a subject. But if someone wants to be a constant dickhead they can always be ignored or, if that doesn't work, thrown out.
Copenhagen Fan wrote:Jeeez...I feel cheated that I missed out on the Jacko gig...!
Cope, it really wasn't particularly interesting...
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Post by Copenhagen Fan »

Bamboozle....shucks....typical that something so mundane would cause a stir in the Reactonary Born Again Right Wing Elvis Costello Message Board......
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